Debating much of this is mostly pointless, as it's been beaten to death on this site more than enough. The fact is, this is Hinkie's plan, not Harris. The reason Hinkie was not hired in the 2012 offseason is because Harris was not willing to go down this path, because he had been convinced by Doug Collins that a legitimate championship foundation was in place, all Doug Collins needed to do was get rid of his problem child, Andre Iguodala.
So instead, Harris spent a buttload of money on a flawed core. Because that's what his GM told him to do. If all Harris wanted to do was to trim costs and make (relatively small) amounts of money, he would have done this in 2012. but he didn't. This style came becuase this is how Hinkie wanted to build his foundation. It was a prerequisite to him being accepting the position. Not the other way around.
But the suggestion that they're running their own D-League team to make money is laughable. D-League teams add neither money to the bottom line now or an increase in valuation of the franchise. That's why half the teams don't run their own affiliate, and that's why the NBA can't force teams to add in that extra cost, even though it would allow the league to have a legitimate minor league system.
Bleh, the league will never have a legit minor league system because developing players isn't an essential element of the game. Except in extremely rare cases, guys are either good enough to play in the league and help a team win, or they aren't and it's apparent from the time they step on the floor for the first time. My point is the 86ers are an asset. If you're making the case that the D-League team is a great idea because they can use it to develop some overlooked talent, well that's what they're doing w/ their regular roster. How far removed from being a legit NBA player do you have to be to fall short of the Sixers active roster of rejects and wannabes?
And to say that first season is proof of Harris' good intentions for the team in the long-term is laughable. This whole thing is right out of the PE handbook. Buy an undervalued asset, give current management enough rope to hang themselves, but not enough to interfere w/ your 5-7 year plan to squeeze every dollar out of it, then bring in your own guys to execute your plan when current management does what they did to get themselves in their current position, fail. Then it's easy to sell the deconstruction and profiteering to follow.
Saying Hinkie has led Harris down this path with all his great ideas for tearing it down to the studs is pretty naive, imo. There were a number of stories right around the time Hinkie was hired saying Harris can finally do what he wants with the team now that Collins/Thorn are out of the way. Even if there weren't stories, the direction of the franchise has been pretty clear, and the motivation behind the moves (or lack thereof). If they were truly trying to build a winner, they'd be doing something to move the team in a positive direction. They'd be signing young guys with at least a glimmer of a shot at being a legit NBA player. Heck they might even be trying to get young guys who were drafted and have contributed in the league. It wouldn't be all cost cutting and collecting marginal draft picks. They aren't developing anything right now, and they know it. They're trotting out a roster with maybe 3 rotational players on it, and maybe zero starters.
Meanwhile, they're making money, both actively and passively, hand over fist. If you want to think that's just a coincidence, fine. To me, it looks a lot like a trend.
They could make $7.5m profit by spending more as well. This isn't the only, or best, way to make money. And the long term valuation of the franchise is going up regardless, due to tv deals and cba changes.
Regardless, this is pointless. Only 2 people really know why they're doing what they're doing, and neither of them are us. You've convinced you've read the tea leaves correctly, I'm confident in my take, so this is all 100% pointless.
First, explaining the year with Collins and Thorn as giving management enough room to hang themselves seems dubious. Why not fire them right away? What if Bynum had worked out? Management thought he would or they wouldn't have made the deal. I guess you could explain the deal as a super-cynical salary dump, but had Bynum played well wouldn't Harris have been under enormous pressure to resign him?
Second, I assume that teams that rebuild in good faith make money too. So I don't see what you can infer from the fact that we're making a smallish profit. What is suspect is the use of D-Leaguers to fill the roster. What does that tell us? The below-floor savings aren't really savings at all, at least until, or if, we trade for Amare. I guess I just don't believe Hinkie's working here and spending all this energy hoarding picks and flipping picks and scouting players and, by most people's lights, doing a very good job of drafting the right ones, just so Harris can ultimately let them walk as Sterling would have.
It's bad PR to just come in and clean house. These guys are wary of their well-earned reputations, so they typically will give management limited rope, especially when they come in during a lockout and then the team gets into the second round of the playoffs, and the miniature owner gets to see himself on national TV at the home games and hobnob with Will Smith. Sterling put money in the team when the league handed him a contender for vanity's sake as well.
I do agree w/ Derek that this is a pointless argument, I just kind of feel like I'm the only one saying anything about it and I don't have anything to say about this joke of a roster, so why not.
I've actually writen a number of articles about how the Sixers are making money. I just haven't gone the "Joshua Harris is the devil" route because that would be relaitvely irresponsible as a credentialed journalist.
Well, I don't have the same restrictions, so I'm allowed to connect the dots. He's a businessman, not a basketball fan. Which is fine. It's what he should be. He's also taking advantage of being in one of the few situations in the world where he can both fail historically and still make money (and set himself up to make even more money). Donald Sterling did it for three decades, it's nothing new. Just worth pointing out exactly what he means when he says a 19-win season was excellent.
Do you think Sam Hinkie would have taken the job if he had any belief, even small, that Josh Harris wouldn't commit the financial resources necessary to field a competitive team when he was able to get his core in place through the draft? Hinkie was extremely well thought of in NBA circles when he was at Houston, there's no doubt that he would have gotten another opportunity relatively soon if he turned down the Sixers. Why would he take this job if he thought ownership would be these money sucking devil beasts?
Same thing with Brett Brown. San Antonio assistants are in high demand. There's no reason to believe that he wouldn't get another opportunity. If he had an inkling of thought that ownership would never give him the tools he needs because a guy worth $2.5b wants to turn a $7m profit, why would he come here?
You have to believe both of these men heavily vetted Harris.
Literally the first press conference Sam Hinkie gave here, he said that superstars are necessary to win, and the draft is a big part of obtaining those superstars. He also comes from an organization that has avoided paying role players in the hopes of adding a 3rd star through free agency. Is it, perhaps, possible that he believes in getting his core through the draft, while maintaining enough salary cap flexibility to complement that core with a 3rd star in free agency?
Is it perhaps possible that the above is more likely than some big conspiracy driven character assassination about a billionaire who is going to make 100x more when he goes to sell this team than these little $7m profits?
Is it perhaps that, maybe rather than call everybody naive who disagrees with you, that there's a possibility your bitterness and disdain are simply misplaced?
I'm not even saying that it's impossible Joshua Harris hasn't told Hinkie something like "Hey, you want to lose to build through the draft? Great. But in order to go through a 2 year period where nobody is in the building, you have to use a roster spot so we can keep getting insurance payments on Jason Richardson's contract." I think something like that is definitely possible. But to say they're bad solely so Harris can bleed every penny he can out of ownership of the franchise? Can't agree with you there.
It's not that you're the only one who can connect the dots. Some people simply don't agree with you.
This is all 100% possible. And it's the same argument every company that gets taken over by a PE firm uses until the pension fund is looted and the machinery is sold for scrap metal. That billionaires do things out of the good of their hearts, or the money doesn't really matter to them, they just want to see a solid company get back on its feet.
As far as Hinkie and Brown's vetting, I can't really speak to that. Hinkie walked into a wet dream of a situation where he had cart blanche to conduct his grand tanking experiment with absolutely zero expectation of winning (or desire to win, depending on how you're reading the tea leaves). Maybe Brown saw a huge guaranteed contract dangled in front of his eyes and thought it was time to stop carrying chalk for Pop...or he realized there are only 30 of these jobs and you don't say no to one, no matter how much it looks like career suicide. Or maybe Harris just did a good job selling them. Who knows.
To be clear, I'm not even saying Harris won't open the checkbook some time down the road, in fact if/when his spreadsheet says he can make more money winning games, I'm sure that's exactly what he'll do. Unfortunately, that conversation is beyond hypothetical right now because this team is a couple lottery miracles and about 8 minor pieces away and hasn't moved an inch closer under Hinkie, unless you believe in fairy tales or you're the most wildly optimistic person in the world.
The bottom line here isn't $7M in guesstimated profits, the bottom line is probably $200M+ in the black in under 5 years, and keeping the cashflow high by keeping the overhead low so when someone comes calling with $1B in his pocket, Harris can pull the trigger immediately.
It's all supposition and speculation on everyone's part. When I say the opposing POV is naive, it's probably because my faith in humanity isn't strong enough to believe Harris has a heart of gold with a couple years of hard evidence to the contrary.
It's not about a "heart of gold". Virtually every NBA owner is a filthy rich business man. But not all of them look at it solely as a way to milk profits until they can't milk any more profits. Some of them enjoy sports. Some of them enjoy the competition. And some of them enjoy the benefits of owning an NBA team and eventually cashing in on a huge windfall when they get sick of it and decide to move on. For whatever reason, probably because of how he made his fortune, not only does Harris not get the benefit of the doubt that he might be like other good NBA owners, but he gets the opposite: he's assumed scumbaggy despite significant evidence that this is being done primarily at Hinkie's urging.
"he's assumed scumbaggy despite significant evidence that this is being done primarily at Hinkie's urging."
Hinkie didn't have anything to do w/ the practice facility. I highly doubt Hinkie had to twist Harris' arm to make the Granger deal, which did absolutely nothing to further the team, but put a bunch of cash in Harris' pockets. I'm not sure why you see these things as being mutually exclusive. Hinkie's plan vs. Harris' plan. Harris hired him, he's obviously green-lit this path in terms of bottoming out and staying bottomed out. Why is Harris absolved in your mind if this is what Hinkie wants to do?
You don't think Hinkie, and Brett Brown, desperate want a high quality practice facility? PCOM is a shit show. It's embarassing. I like how we've made having a state of the art practice facility a bad thing just because it might make the valuation fo the franchise bad.
I've mentioned numerous times that I think acquiring Granger to get over the floor threshold was partly to do with saving money, and I've said that I expect them to do something similar this season if they get to the deadline and are under the floor. Where I disagree is that I don't think they're not spending money now to save money. I think they're keeping money now to remain as flexible as possible to make deals like the rumored Karasev one. Have they gone over the top? Perhaps. But I do believe that's the reasoning. And I do believe that if a trade comes up that will use $15m of cap space but acquire an asset Hinkie values, that Harris will do it.
I think that's the difference between ones who believe this is Harris driven and those who believe this is Hinkie driven.
I think the perfect example of this is the rumored Jeremy Lin trade. Lin has the exact kind of contract that Harris wouldn't want to acquire if he were in 'make small amounts of money each year' mode. He'd only get the Sixers $8.3m closer to the salary cap floor, but he's going to cost a team $14.9 million this season.
But the Sixers were in talks to acquire him, and I have good sources in both organizations. The talks were real. It ended up falling through because the Lakers were willing to take on his contract for less, for what ends up being an extremely late first round pick. But if the matter of contention came because of the quality of a draft pick, something that's very unlikely to impact Harris's bottom line, it came down to a basketball/flexibility decision, not a financial decision. Hinkie just needed more compensation to give up that flexibility.
If they had made the trade, maybe you'd have a point. And I think I said at he the time that it would've shown a willingness to pay some money to improve the team in some way. If they had made it.
And building the practice facility isn't the issue. Building it in Camden because of the tax credits is.
They find a way to make money w/ every company they buy, could be building up, could be tearing down, could be ringing every last cent out of it and then selling. Depends on the situation. What they typical will not do is throw good money after bad for sentimental reasons. Ergo, why would I pay money to win when I can make more money losing. That's something that would fall under sentimentality.
Have I missed the plethora of businessmen who were successful enough to own NBA teams who weren't trying to find a way to make money with every company they're associated with?
Have I missed the plethora of businessmen who have owned an NBA team and green-lit putting a product on the floor that in no way resembles and NBA team? Harris' actions are in line with Sterling's, that was the point of this post. You can argue that you think he's got something bigger/better planned for down the road if you want to, but you can't argue that his franchise is being run like he's happy to lose as long as he's making money. That is not a trait I'd associate with most owners.
So a naive question - while teams like this one are probably more profitable than .500 teams that spend a lot more on salary, don't the big winners make a lot more on their tv deals, ticket sales, merchandise, revenues from playoff appearances, etc.? Likewise, doesn't building a contender increase a franchise's resale value?
I'd assume Harris has a model that uses projected earnings, payroll, wins and spits out a number. That number is black right now, it probably goes to red pretty quickly if he starts adding salary and I have no idea if/when it goes back to black. In terms of sale value, right now he could sell to an owner who actually wants to win as it being a clean slate w/ a ton of cap room. He could sell it to another vulture as a team that's in the black and completely lean.
If the team was to start adding salaried players, it would be harder to make a sale to the second type of owner. If they added a salaried player who didn't pan out, it would make them less attractive to everyone. If they just stick with draft picks and cast offs, there's very little risk the value of the franchise's value decreasing, to either type of potential buyer.
Essentially, he's building value in the team. Taking cash out of the team, putting it in his pockets and he can afford to do this forever because he's making money doing it. He can afford to keep doing it until they get the next Michael Jordan in the draft. Until that happens, keep punting, keep losing, keep raking in the dough.
"He can afford to keep doing it until they get the next Michael Jordan in the draft. Until that happens, keep punting, keep losing, keep raking in the dough."
So you're saying that if we draft the next Jordan we will re-sign him? What if Embiid's really good? If you're acknowledging that we'll re-sign a star if we draft one, then I don't see the comparison to Sterling, who didn't re-sign the players he drafted until the very end of his tenure. Really what you're saying is what you've always been saying, that you'd prefer we not go the tanking/rebuilding route.
Just to tack on, the whole point of this exercise is to draft really good players, and to use the advantages the CBA gives a team to re-sign its own players to lock up the really good players we draft. Now, if you think this is all a cost-saving charade and we really have no intention of spending a lot of money to re-sign top talent we draft, I don't agree but that's something worth talking about. But if you think that we will re-sign excellent players we draft, but that this strategy is partially driven by how profitable it makes the team up until the point when we have to pay our drafted players a lot of money, then I don't see why that even matters. So long as they'll actually make the key re-signings, whether they're partially driven by profits in choosing to tank isn't a big deal; I could still think their strategy, whatever its motives, is the best way to go. If your real point is that you don't like the tank-and-rebuild strategy even when pursued seriously and would prefer that we accumulate talent through free agency and not trade away key pieces on a mediocre but competitive team, let's talk about that instead of their motives. Of course, there are all sorts of variations on your position - you may think that we'll re-sign our best draft picks, but won't make the secondary moves needed to win. That would be worth discussing, but I don't know how you could reasonably predict that. Most of what you're saying just assumes that because our owners made their money in a field that's particularly unsentimental about making money (as most successful businesses are), they will always act to maximize their profits in this venture. Which doesn't follow and doesn't mean anything unless you can show that contention wouldn't increase their profits.
It's all supposition, but if I had to guess, I'd say Harris would probably operate like the Thunder. He'll be on the wrong side of a Harden deal to avoid paying the tax. In the mean time, I don't think any avenue toward building a contender will be followed that requires significant payroll increase. As far as I know, Sterling's sin wasn't failing to re-sign his players. Who did he let walk that wound up being good elsewhere? His sin was mostly having terrible GM's who blew draft picks.
I know everyone thinks Saric is a stud and we're lucky that Embiid fell to us, but if you aren't drinking that Kool-aid, and you just look at the facts, Harris and Hinkie are actively trying to make this as slow of a process as possible. They're making picks with the intention of remaining horribly bad for as long as possible. Now if you're an optimist, you could say Hinkie wants to be at the top of the lottery until he gets the next LeBron and he doesn't care about anything else. If you're a pessimist, well, then it looks like Harris is saying "I'm making money by losing, why would I spend money to chase wins?"
I know that statement sounds outrageous, but it's something Sterling did for decades, hence the post.
" I'd say Harris would probably operate like the Thunder. He'll be on the wrong side of a Harden deal to avoid paying the tax" - but didn't we see the exact opposite of this during the Brand/Bynum year?
Not really, no. They actually might've wound up making money on that deal. Part of Brand's salary was picked up by Dallas, and I assume insurance paid all or most of Bynum's contract. A true conspiracy theorist might even say the Bynum deal was approved as a means to speed Collins/Thorn's departures and save some money. I'm not sure I'd go that far. Someone else might know more about insurance on Bynum's contract, I'm just guessing. Read further up in the conversation for further explanation, search for "enough rope to hang themselves."
Also, even if they did spend on Bynum, it was a one-year expense. It wasn't a long-term max deal for a young budding star. Not a lot of risk in any one-year contract.
The Sixers payroll that year was around $84 million. $3 million of Brand's salary was paid by Dallas. And I assume they had a large chunk of Bynum's $17 mil salary paid by insurance.
I actually do think that Collins was set up to fail that year. 24 year old franchise centers don't get acquired for a few lottery protected 1st round picks. Every other team in the league stayed away from him and the only offer he received in free agency was mostly non-guaranteed.
But I have to agree with most of what Harris did. Iguudala was going to walk in free agency,I have no doubts about that. Evan Turner was a bust,and Collins was a little outdated. If the previous ownership was running that team, our current outlook would be the Charlotte Bobcats.
I think you can agree with me that the rebuild was the best option.
I liked the Jrue Holiday trade. I liked the Joel Embiid selection, and I even thought they got decent value for Thad Young. And I love that they put an emphasis on developing players.
I don't mind that the Sixers are trying to save money during this rebuild. My only beef with what Harris and Hinkie did is how they built the current roster. 90% of this roster doesn't belong in the NBA. It's pretty much a laughing stock and I don't think either one of them care.
Well again, this limited rope wouldn't have been so limited had Bynum been healthy. I can't really imagine a scenario in which, had Bynum been his old self, we wouldn't have handed him a huge offer. Maybe you can. I also don't think it would have been such bad PR to dump Collins and Thorn right at the outset. Firing them was a pretty popular move.
Two years later it was a popular move, after the Bynum thing blew up and they didn't make the playoffs. And if the Bynum thing worked out and the team ascended, I'm sure they would've put money into the team. They gave Collins/Thorn a fair shot, sort of, to complete their plan. So long as they didn't commit to anything more than 2 years. That was the length of the rope, had they hit paydirt, we'd be having a different conversation because they'd be a top-tier team. Harris wouldn't have been able to hit his self-destruct button and brought in his big brain to execute on the plan.
And just a for the record, stop complaining about me complaining type thing. I'd love it if there was something basketball-related to talk about. I'd absolutely love it if they were putting a worthwhile product on the floor, or there was some hope that what we're watching today could somehow congeal into an actual NBA team, but that's just not the case. 80% of their roster belongs in the D-League, or Europe. The guys who maybe have a chance of being in the league 5 years from now are surrounded by hopeless lost causes, and have no chance to develop and learn how to be solid contributors in the league when they're getting blown out every night and they're surrounded by guys who are outclassed in every way every single night. Anyone worth anything on this roster is going to be looking for the quickest path out of town and the second they build some kind of trade value, they'll be moved to start the process all over w/ some other guy who's too young and not quite good enough to accidentally contribute wins.
It's a sham, the longer the process goes, the longer Harris can stuff his pockets. Zero risk, pure profit, every day until he hits the eject button and really collects. Just like Sterling.
Donald Sterling had the luxury of being able to put out a terrible product but still bring in decent attendance numbers. Harris doesn't have that same luxury and isn't really making bank on this plan. He probably could have made more profit had he kept Holiday then used up the salary cap to sign veteran free agents.
I think his real intention is to flip this team for a huge profit. Which I don't think is a bad thing. Selling a team with potential superstars to an owner with deep pockets is a good thing for the fans. What I don't want to happen is the Sixers being a team that doesn't pay the luxury tax or is willing to let talented players walk because they don't want to pay them market value.
MCW with another gem tonight. I'd almost rather him shoot 3's over a lay-ups because he appears to have the same chances of making each.
The team fought hard tonight. Unfortunately they are getting no PG play at all right now. 7/27 and 11 TO's for the dynamic duo. And much like Houston, horrible decision making in clutch time. Too bad. I thought they had a win tonight the way they battled.
Horrible call on the loose ball foul. What a joke.
MCW is really tough to watch this season. He shows bad defensive body language. He still can't finish at the rim. He clearly never learned how to throw a lob (the mcw to Noel should be a lot more common but clearly isn't working). His physical tools are there and he can get about 75% of the way to being really good (between using height, speed, etc.) and then he totally fucks up that last 25% of the process. It doesn't seem like a basketball iq thing (though that's not impressive either), he just has been lackluster.
KJ continues to impress me. He has his limitations with his handle and defensive lapses, but he can be very very effective on both sides of the floor. The shot looked good until those last 2 (whcih arguably mattered). If e shoots 3's at a high 30s clip.... Very positive.
Wroten is a thorn in my side but less so than mcw. He just seems like the type of guy who hangs around for 5 years and makes small BahnCard to his game to remain effective. Idk why I've been constructive in him.
You can see signs of what the interior defense could be like with Noel and KJ.
great effort tonight.
Love the 2 oops MCW threw to Nerlens off the PnR. Glimpse of a hopeful future if each can get better (MCW finishing or shooting inside, Noel timing the screen and slip right).
If BB can take anything from this game, it is that his team will only have a chance when Noel and KJ are on the floor together. Great defense tonight.
MCW's man to man defense blows; he switches way too often and keeps reaching in. Getting fouled out tonight was a direct result of silly touch fouls picked up earlier.
I hope BB continues to reign him in; he gets carried away on offense way too much.
Watching Bucks v T-Wolves....great game. I need to come clean on Lavine. I don't know what position he plays in the NBA, but he definitely belongs. I always thought he looked lost out there on the court, but watching him tonight, no...he's a player. Wiggins still doesn't look like a #1 pick, but the potential is easy to see and he is progressing. Parker was really pressing. And when you consider the athletes on the court this game, it makes sense that he looked a step slow and struggled to find his place. Greek freak is is still the most impressive player on the floor.
On another note: True Hoop interview with Brett Brown was interesting when he discussed the draft. He was very candid and its worth a listen. I really want Brown to succeed here and I hope he turns out to be the right guy.
Bummer. There goes 32.6 mpg of picturesque basketball. I thought he had a head sprain. No worry, Snowflake will pick up the turnover slack until Tony the Tiger returns.
Tomorrow night; Dallas: another cotton-pickin' loss. 0-16: new ground. How do you like that.
Halftime entertainment: Sam "The Dangling Detonator" Hinkie meets Josh "48 Minutes Of Helicopters" Harris in what is expected to be ferocious intramural tabletop tennis. The "Adam Aron Invitational Championship" match should be a humdinger.
By the way, is there such a medical phenomenon as a full body cramp? Sounds excuciatingly painful and technically restrictive, especially on the dance floor. Does it typically require 2 months of recovery time? Lastly, do you expect Grant to boogie tonight with any degree of success? His father & uncle were OK, so long as they stuck to their roles. But they weren't coached by Jim Boeheim, 'ice to the eskimo' recruiter and average game time maestro.
He has had a really terrible year for some reason. I actually expected him to take a big step up with SVG in town. Maybe that was the wrong expectation on my part.
My hope was that Embid would compete in the era of new big men with Boogie Cousins, Drummond, and Davis. With Davis being the less traditional back to the basket guy. Obviously it has only been a short portion of the season but it seems like Drummond is a tier below those other two. I would basically hope Embid is a tier above the Hibberts and Drummonds (as of now) of the world.
Yeah I was surprised. I'm sure a lot of people in Detroit were hoping SVG would do for him what he did for Dwight. Last season he had 13.5/13.2/1.2stl/1.4blk on 62% from the field and some horrifying number from the line. I'm looking and so far this year his PER dropped from 22.6 to league average 15.4 and he's significantly worse in almost every category except ft%, which is still at
I don't really follow the NBA as close as I used to so I just kind of assumed he was an 18/15/2blocks guy now.
I am curious to see how MCW plays without Wroten AND on the back of this awful start. Brown seems to be emphasizing passing and I would really like to see that myself. He won't be invisible just given the amount he handles the ball. Let the game come to you at least to some extent.
Monte Ellis is an interesting case study for me. What makes that guy so successful in Dallas? He has learned his role and become so much more efficient. I rich man's Lou Williams (who has been incredible). I hope Pierre Jackson can recover and mold himself after these type of players. Low probability, but if I draw up all of these "sixer X should mold himself after successful player Y" then one has to work, right?
stuff is just not falling their way tonight.
yet another close game.
Tyson Chandler
If he was out instead of Nowitzki, we probably win this game, that's just how valuable dude is for the Mavs.
Monta Ellis as usual finishes it up.
Triple Dub for MCW tonight; hopefully he continues to play the same way.
Coming out party for KJ tonight; he has am impressive learning curve. getting a little antsy about his contract now.
The team help defense is really improving. Good to see that.
I pray for the day when LRMAM doesn't either start, attempt a 3 or both preferably.
KJ's offensive IQ seems to be rapidly increasing. Not forcing things too much (all relative), using pump fakes and allowing defenders to come to him. If I saw this and you didn't tell me who he was. I would absolutely think he is a "3rd guy on a contender" potential.
Last 24 seconds of the game Sampson had 1 offensive rebound, 1 defensive rebound, and 1 assist (+2). Let's extrapolate those numbers and just imagine the potential here
To be fair, MCW looked better tonight. I was ready to throw in the towel after the first few games, but someone got the message across. In my view, he just needs to keep some trade value for us. I was losing hope in that.
Noel has been in line with my expectations. He will frustrate the shit out of you with his rock hands, but he makes some really impressive plays. He has a future in the league, but that role could be huge or could be limited. I remain optimistic.
I was a big defender/supporter of Hollis last year. He has developed as I would have hoped. I am not giving much leniency given we have only played 16 games, but it is what it is.
KJ continues to look like a real hell of a player. His defensive potential is as good as I have seen. Iguodala does things that don't get noticed to the naked eye and I think few players match his ability. KJ will make more highlight blocks, but needs to develop that same play to play lockdown potential. I am not saying he is anywhere near the top tier of perimeter defenders, but, to me, he has as much potential as anyone I have watched.
I expect people will give you some mumbo jumbo responses to get specific, but yes, that is exactly it. The handle is still not there, which prohibits full use of his athleticism.
What I like about him is he has no lack of defensive aggressiveness. I won't go and compare his upside to Wiggins, no way. But guys like Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler can slip....and KJ was in a very deep draft. You can see where my mind goes based on both what I have seen in him and how I have seen others develop.
And what I meant there is he is not afraid to use his athleticism. Attempting blocks and getting o-boards. We get smoked on the boards wiht our small lineups, but he helps us keep it from being significantly worse.
No I wasn't comparing upsides, obviously I would rather have Wiggins.
I just meant that there's a case to be made that a fifth into their rookie seasons, KJ has looked more like the 'Wiggins projection' than Wiggins has. Shot, athleticism, defensive ability, etc. albeit a sloppy handle.
Noel has more unique upside, but I think I take KJ. I know I am riding the hot streak here, but I question what KJ doesn't bring. He is the type of guy who you could have on the floor in any situation and I wonder if that will be the case with Noel (given strength, ft shooting, etc.).
I am drinking the kool aid, but if I didn't know where they were drafted I think this would be my conclusion.
I was leaving contracts out of it. I really need to understand what we can sign him to after this season. Obviously cheaper is better in the next 3-4 years, but is there any value to locking him in longer now versus later. I don't know the answer to that so I wont comment.
I don't think they'd be able to lock him in now as opposed to later. The point of his decision to opt for a 1 year minimum salary deal was to open a bidding war for his game in the RFA market next offseason. I guess the Sixers can bid against themselves now and overpay him or they can match when someone else tries to overpay him in the summer, but either way KJ stands to gain at the expense of the team.
For the sake of the bigger picture it's almost better if he stumbles and regresses this season and depreciates in value so that nobody throws any crazy offers his way and the Sixers can lock him up to a low, exploitative contract as is the usual drill for second round picks who outperform their draft slot. And then he can blossom into a good player.
That or do what Brian says and just send him to the D-League as both a punitive and economics measure.
I am referring to paying him for 4 years this summer (or the max term) versus waiting 3 years and extending him 4 years ala Jrue. Its a term thing. Obviously the 2 and 2 deal would have been best, but maybe the 1 year deal is the next best alternative.
There is no reason a team shouldn't give him a very very good offer this summer, like serious offer. Philly should match it. I would be furious if they did not.
"There is no reason a team shouldn't give him a very very good offer this summer, like serious offer. Philly should match it. I would be furious if they did not."
I'm interested to see this play out. If he continues his promising play, gets a good offer and Philly doesn't match it, that would lend some more credence to this 'Sterling' criticism of how this regime is just out to save money.
So it seems that under the Gilbert Arenas rule - see http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q45 - a team will only be able to offer McDaniels 5.46 million next year, and about $5.7 million the year after that. But after those years, they can go way up, except that they must be able to fit the average salary over the course of the contract under the cap. If a team had room or were willing to pay luxury tax, you could see a 4-year, $32 million deal, for example, but about 21 million of it would have to be paid in the last two years. You could also see a poison pill contract of the sort Morey gave Lin and Asik - a three-year contract where the third year salary balloons to the max ($15 million in their cases).
"f a team had room or were willing to pay luxury tax, you could see a 4-year, $32 million deal, for example, but about 21 million of it would have to be paid in the last two years. You could also see a poison pill contract of the sort Morey gave Lin and Asik - a three-year contract where the third year salary balloons to the max ($15 million in their cases)."
A poison pill (which isn't a term defined in the CBA at all) is, generically, just when the the accounting of the salary is different than the norm. Because the first two years are capped, the only way to offer a 4 year, $32m deal is to backload it, thus creating AAV different than what is actually being payed to the player. It's not really either/or situation.
Also, a team willing to pay the luxury tax cannot offer that type of deal. You either need an exception or cap space. So a team over the cap can use the MLE, but they won't be able to get it up to 4yrs/$32m range
Guestimating a max contract starting at $15.5m next year, the max somebody can offer KJ would be something like:
year 1: $5.464
year 2: $5.710
year 3: $16.9
year 4: $17.6
Total: 4 years, $45.674m
(which, of course, would never happen. Just defining the max).
So he could end up with a Lin like salary where his last year's pay is way more than his cap hit. That would be a good test of Brian's notions about the owners. The last thing a cheap owner wants is to pay nearly double in actually dollars the amount a player counts against the cap.
KJ has looked like the best Sixer on the floor on several occasions. It reminds me a bit of Vucevic's rookie year. There were games in January when he looked like the best player on the floor... then he was put in Doug Collins doghouse.
Thanks. Suppose he signs a 3-year offer sheet with a big balloon payment - which might not make a lot of sense, but could happen if his best 4-year offer is for a lower average salary (or if he gets no 4-year offers), if he thinks his third contract is likely to be even better for various reasons (cap, projected improvements in his play) and wants to speed up the point at which it starts, or if he wants out of here (which is just as likely as it isn't) and thinks we're less likely to match a 3-year deal with a huge balloon payment than a 4-year deal with lower payments in years 3 and 4. So, he signs this offer sheet for, say, 5.5/5.7/12.8, for an average of 8 million. Isn't there a decent chance we don't match? We might well think that contention is four years away (Embiid's 4th season, Saric's 3rd, 2015 draft stud's 4th) and not be too interested in spending $12.8 million in year 3 just to retain a player with no guarantee he'll resign when we're contending.
Very low. Even a payment like that, keep in mind years 2 and 3 of that deal will be under the environment with the new tv deal. even if they increase it gradually, that big $12.8m payment will come in the second year of the new tv deal, so it should be up substantially.
Why so confident that these owners aren't cheap? I don't strongly believe they are, but I don't strongly believe they aren't. And pretty much every time a player's been offered one of these balooning deals, his team hasn't matched. It wouldn't shock me if our owners balked at paying $13 million in one year to a guy who most people thought of as a nifty role player until very recently. Aberrantly good rookie seasons aren't unheard of. I'm a huge believer in KJ myself, but they might not be.
I mean, this is an argument we've had about 4,371 times on this site. I don't really feel like having it a 4,372nd time. I feel the owners will give Hinkie the resources he needs when he's ready to build a team. We'll just have to wait and see.
Because I'm confident:
1) That Hinkie likes long, athletic defenders that can shoot.
2) That Harris will give Hinkie the financial support he needs.
3) That with the rising cap, the structure of the deal won't be all that damaging, and what we look at as too much now won't be looked at that way in 2 years.
Obviously, a lot determines how this season plays out, but this is the perfect offseason to try to lock in a young piece long term.
Yeah, but a 3-year deal isn't that long-term; that's why it might work for the team making the offer. We have to pay a lot to match AND we're not locking him up for when we'll need him most. Moreover, Hinkie might think that he can get someone about as good with the Miami pick, on a rookie payscale contract that's a fraction of what McDaniels would be offered in this scenario.
Well, I'm sure they'll be looking into a 4 year deal. The 3 year hypothetical wasn't brought up by me, nor do I think it's particularly likely.
Even so, after 3 years they'll have full bird rights.
He'll be a restricted free agent, and he'll be a restricted free agent in the ideal offseason to get him locked into a reasonable contract. I think Sam's going to value somebody of his ilk who can shoot, young, can defend, and can fit around virtually any star(s).
The bottom line is, we'll have to wait to find out. We could sit here and speculate and what-if all night, but we just don't know. It's nice to have somebody good enough that we have to worry about losing, though.
It'll also be interesting because we haven't actually seen Hinkie in one of these scenarios. We haven't seen him enter free agency with a guy who he brought in, who he values as a long term piece. We've only seen him get whatever value he can for to either move cruft that wasn't a long term fixture of the team (Hawes, Turner), get value for guys who were about to walk (Thad), or move guys who didn't fit his long term strategy but were at the apex of their value (Jrue). This will be a first for Hinkie, so it'll be interesting to see what happens if one of these high contracts comes in.
Oh, I think it's perfectly likely that some team will offer a 3-year deal. The whole point is to make the offer that we're least likely to match, so long as it's something the team making the offer would be happy with. 3 years with a big payment in year 3 is a lot worse from our perspective than 4 years with some more scaled payments in years 3 and 4. Houston made offers like this with both Lin and Asik. I also think there's a pretty decent chance, say 50%, that KJ will actively seek to get out of here and look to sign an offer sheet that he hopes we won't match. Putting aside the mom, we offered him a really lousy deal at the start of his career while at the same we're doing sentimental favors with money for Pierre Jackson, losing isn't for everyone, he's complained to the media about his minutes, and he can't like that about 7 different guys who are worse players than he is have started ahead of him. His coach has more specifically critical things to say about him to media than just about anyone on the team; isn't it a little weird that Brown picks on our best defender for his defensive rotations? He doesn't comment on MCW's defense or Wroten's, etc. It's all speculative but I think there's more reason to think he wouldn't be crazy about staying here than there is with most anyone else on the team.
Yeah, I don't agree that we'd be less likely to match a 3 year deal. If we're willing to pay huge amounts for years 3 and 4, we're willing to pay huge amounts for year 3 and go into year 4 with his bird rights.
His minutes were an issue once this year, after he played 11 minutes. Since then he's played 28.5 minutes per night, including 3 in a row of over 30. Playing time talks. It's hard to say his coach hates him when he's playing 30 minutes night in and night out. He's said everything right outside of that one game.
And his mom has been an issue at every stop of his basketball career, and, IMO, will be an issue any time she is given a platform to make herself the story.
The 1 year contract was a move by his agent and himself to gain leverage earlier in his career than most rookies will, and a smart one considering KJ's skill sets and situation.
I've talked to KJ, his agent, and people around him. I don't get the sense that he either hates the situation (his only real grievance earlier in the year was that his minutes were cut without knowing why) or that he's looking to run out of town on the first chance he gets. Of course, I could be reading the situation incorrectly. Ultimately, we'll find out next July.
He's going to get paid the max he can get for at least the next two years. Teams have seen enough of him to know that's better value than what they can get from a veteran free agent like Iman Shumpert. It's a shame we didn't trade up in the 1st round to draft him. I wonder why OKC passed on him twice to draft Mitch McGary and Jeff Huestis.
It is really looking like his poor 3pt percentage in college was a bit of a mirage. Either he really improved this summer, or he was pulled down by having to take many forced looks in college. You can tell that at this point he is dramatically better at shooting when he gets his feet set and is uncontested. My hope is that he will gradually improve his release to where he no longer needs to be so open. But even if he stays like this, his jumper is a nice weapon given he also has a decent handle and ability to finish.
I feel like guys entering the draft as upperclassmen get unfairly dropped in the draft. If a guy evolves from a raw athlete into a skilled player like KJ, McCrae and Payne then it is a sign they will be true pros that continue to work on their games. I can see why with someone like ET or McDermott you want to be a bit wary that he used extra experience to compensate for poor athleticism. But that is different from KJ or Payne, who are elite athletes who increased their skill level.
You see raw athletes getting drafted with the hope they gain skill as a pro- and sometimes you get great results like with Westbrook. But if you have a guy who started as a raw athlete who already has shown the ability to improve, then why drop them on your draft board simply because they are 20?
He shot 40% on uncontested catch and shot shots his last year at Clemson. He's currently shooting 38.5% here.
However, he's shooting about the same rate (contested vs uncontested): 67% of his catch and shoot opportunities were contested his last year at Clemson, where he shot 31%. So far this year 62% of his catch and shoot opportunities have been contested, and he's shooting 47.6%.
There's a 3rd option, of course: He's shooting unsustainably well on contested catch and shoot jump shots. Or a 4th, that he's improved his pre-shot footwork and form enough that he's able to get his shot off significantly quicker, and thus being contested doesn't impact him as much. I'd have to go back and look at tape from clemson to compare. But 47.6% on contested catch and shoot jumpers places him among the best in the league. I'd expect a little regression.
Interesting numbers. But I'm not sure how many of those "contested" jumpers were actually open enough to where he could get off a proper (in his case, slow) release.
Without any numbers, he seems like he is over 50% when he has proper form and really poor when he rushes his shot. I'm guessing that as the lead player at Clemson he rarely had time to shoot with a delive
Interesting numbers. But I'm not sure how many of those "contested" jumpers were actually open enough to where he could get off a proper (in his case, slow) release.
Without any numbers, he seems like he is over 50% when he has proper form and really poor when he rushes his shot. I'm guessing that as the lead player at Clemson he rarely had time to shoot with a deliberate release.
The Sixers have played about as good as you could expect over the past week, and have not won a game. Either that means they are getting ready to break out and actually win some games... or that even at their best they are completely hosed.
Can the Sixers create a loophole in which they offer a poison pill contract to a player which pays out $3 million a year for the first two years and a non-guaranteed $18 million for the 3rd year? Making the sum total of the contract worth $24 million and have the cap hit average out to $8 million/year. It would put them $8 million towards the salary floor for the first two years but only require them to pay out less than half of that in actual cash. When the 3rd year comes they would just waive the player and save $10 million over two years in salary floor payments.
Wroten has arguably been the best and most consistent player so far but I don't mind watching a few games without him in the lineup. I think it could lead to figuring out more balanced and effective rotations in the long haul. My preferred starting group would be MCW with Shved and KJ on the wings and Noel and Sims down low. Then Wroten completely running the show on the second unit with Thompson and Covington spacing for him and Moute defending whoever needs defending and maybe Aldemir making sure they don't get hammered on the glass.
I posted this about Shved on the 'So Long Thad' thread a while back from a CSN article I read:
"Though Shved's numbers for his career have been pretty terrible, they have been better the more minutes he's played, to an almost shocking degree...13 and six on 43% shooting (35% from downtown) in 16 games of 30-something minutes"
Also, in his time on the floor with Rubio (a pass-first PG with a broken shot kinda like MCW) Shved had also upped his production. Only problem was that Shved was mainly used to give Rubio a breather as opposed to being paired up with him.
"...Shved saw fewer than 100 minutes on-court alongside Rubio all last season. In 2012-13, when they played over 300 minutes together, the Wolves were +4.2 points per 100 possessions, when the team was -2.5 for the season."
Shved needs playing time to produce and I think he and MCW compliment each other's skill sets fairly well. Last night's Dallas game had some evidence of that. Wroten needs the ball in his hands so just let him boss-mode with that second unit and hope for the best.
Nice to hear good news after the early season drama with Efes. Anyone who watch the FIBA Worlds this summer could tell Dario is already one of the better players in Europe. But its still good to see how quickly he was able to transition to playing in a higher league this year.
No doubt in my mind that he would be the the best or second best active Sixer if he was on the roster right now (of course that is not really saying much.) he is basically a more physical/grittier Tony Kukoc who makes everyone around him better. But unfortunately he won't be a Sixers for years.
In a game with Parker and Duncan shelved, Sixers down 15 in 2nd qtr.
If you needed a layman's explanation it would be something like this: Spurs play smart, Sixers play not smart.
In all probability even if the Spurs fielded a team of the bottom of their depth chart, there is a high likelihood that we would still lose.
Hoping the 2nd half brings some adjustments. Effort is there so far.
Not sure we win that game in Minnesota now. This team doesn't understand what it takes to get a W. Being competitive seems to be enough reward for them.
Really disappointing to see MCW with yet another key turnover in crunch time. He has to learn how to take care of the ball if he is going to be a starting PG in this league. And he's on the clock with this team whether he choses to believe it or not. Shape up.
9 undrafted players and no one with real NBA experience. No experience. They can't hope to execute even rudimentary offensive or defensive sets, regardless of whether the individual players have talent or potential. A really bad environment for MCW and anyone else of relevance to be evaluated or developed.
I'm 100% on board with the full rebuild. But the 30M Hinkie is not using is making this a wasted season in terms of player development. Sprinkle in a few 2 year contracts for vet players better than LRMAM (90% iof the NBA) and they could execute. But any time you have multiple guys like Hollis, Jakaar and Gordon and you might as well call the game and just run a practice.
yeah execution itself is challenging.
with Noel sitting, we were trotting out lineups with Sampson, Gordon and Grant who had barely played lately and the miscues on offense and defense were there.
The guy is injury prone. Hinkie is building a team of fragile players. Skinny as toothpicks; get pushed around; missing lots of playing time. Usually a benefit of having a young roster is relative durability. Not the case with this friggin' team. Oh and one more thing: our #3 overall pick has a stress fracture in his back and a broken foot at 7', 250 lbs.
Sigh, so sad to see how far you've gone into tabloidness.
Sterling's a vile hate filled racist misogynistic convicted slum lord.
He ran his franchise the same way for decades and it was mostly ignored...even lauded by some because the clippers were the most profitable NBA team around.
What brought Sterling to the forefront of the nation was his being an awful human being, not an awful owner. An article that starts off with a premise like this is below bleacher report.
We get it, you don't have patience. You think that the sixers should somehow be better. You long for the days of mediocrity and the 8 seed. And it's your sand box - but this article is pretty despicable.
Especially since they were still cleaning up the messes left by Doug Collins less than a year ago.
I expected more from you but it's the typical believing in the rebuild in theory but being unable to handle it when you're in the middle of it. The sixers best asset when Sam Hinkie got here was Jrue Holiday. I'm really not sure what realistic expectations one should have had that he could turn that into.
Fortunately, Sam Hinkie doesn't care what you think (and before anyone chimes in about how he should care what the fans think, no he shouldn't, the best owners/gms don't care what you think- they know if their plan works, you'll show up.)
I'm gonna need for you to retard your anger level a few notches (bonus: what movie is that from?)
Nowhere does the article compare Harris' character in terms of racism and misogyny to that of Sterling. It talks about "methods" strictly in the business sense so I don't understand the outrage.
"But really, all Josh Harris is doing is committing a white collar version of Donald Sterling's blue collar crimes"
..meaning profiteering. not getting exposed on TMZ telling his gross mistress about how Iverson can't come to the games any more cause he's black.
Thanks for reading, or whatever it's called when you just look at a headline and come up with a hysterical reaction to what you think was written, then call the writer a hack for stooping to sensationalism instead of being a bastion of good taste and critical thought like you are. Kudos.
What they would have is a nascent nucleus in place with visible growth and potential for being properly evaluated. instead of a gaggle of D-Leaguers weighing down both the value and valuation of the 3 or 4 second or first year potential rotation players they already had.
Yes. I get jealous watching the Bucks. Jabari and GA are a core. Jennings, Henson, Middleton, Sanders and Ilyasova all have interesting role potential. They have some swag to them. One day....
Giannis they should be excited about. I honestly dont know what he becomes but whatever it is will probably be dominant at his position. 3 or 4, perimeter or inside/out, he has the tools to be a guaranteed mismatch. All he needs is minutes now.
Jennigns still plays for them?? You mean Knight right?
The only thing the Sixers have over Milwaukee is that they have a potential franchise player in Embiid. But I have a lot of concerns over his long term playing ability.
Good question to think about, but I would not trade rosters. I enjoy watching the bucks (and do regularly on League Pass). Giannis is unreal potential, and he is developing now that Kidd understands that he just needs minutes. I love that kid (not the other Kidd). But honestly, outside of him, not too exciting when I look down the road. Sanders is good for stretches, but Noel could easily be him in a few years. Knight is playing OK but he's not very consistent. And Parker still has big question marks regarding his fit and lack of athleticism. Embiid will recover from his injuries, and MIL has nothing that rivals his potential, even Giannis. Throw in a guaranteed top 4 pick in this draft plus Miami's pick, Saric in two, a developing KJ....no thanks. A better argument would be Minny but I wouldn't do that either.
It's tough getting through this period for many fans. Some of these players obviously have no business being on an NBA roster, and it sucks watching a stiff like Gordon take/air ball 3's, or Jakar being Jakar, this list goes on...but the future of this team is tangible. I would not dream of trading rosters.
Those are all fair points. Overall, I would say no I wouldn't trade rosters + picks but it's very close. I think I'm biased as well. So net/net is probably side with both twolves and bucks as unbiased third party.
I agree about patience, but saying embid will be a super star is such a crapshoot. Yes I have an optimistic outlook but it's tough to comp that to Gianiss where we already have some idea of what he may be.
I think Parker and GA compliment each other incredibly well and have a more positive view on Jabari. That means not necessarily a top 15 guy but as a top 30 guy.
I think their third piece could come from a wide range of spots. A big man like bosh or Ibaka? I think point guards are easier to come by (a common point by Brian) so filling out the core seems reasonable.
All of that said, I like Embid, Noel, KJ, Saric and our picks this year as good probability lotto cards. Mcw is just a lotto card to me. And the rest are expendable/replaceable through free agency in any given offseason.
Oh my, no Shved. Whatever will they do tonight without him? The lad was just coming into his own, streaking down that 0-17 court like a YMCA Pistol Pete. He must've pulled his only muscle.
I read the average viewership of games is under 30,000 households. Add that to 12,000 at games ad you have less than 1 in 100 people in the region tuning in. I wonder how that compares to the other teams in town?
My goodness this game is horrific. So much athleticism on the court but so many Wrotenesque plays happening on both sides. It was nice to see us win so many o-boards in that first quarter.
I am VERY reluctant to say this on such a a small sample size, but Jeremy Grant is making some interesting plays. I think its going to be net/net ugly for him this season, but I had written him off in general. Hoping I am wrong.
If MCW could only figure out what to do once he gets to the lane. He gets there with EASE against pretty much any defender. Then I want to gorge my eyes out.
And that jumper.... MCW's jumper or Noel's post game.... thats a tough one.
Amazing they won a game in one of their worst played games. Missed 18 of their first 19 3's, MCW 6 TO's but 20/9/9/3. As ugly as you'd expect in their first win- but happy to see it. Hopefully at least 9 more.
Probably wasn't one of our best games this season, but it's nice to know they can occasionally win a game. Not having watched the game, I don't know if there are any meaningful takeaways besides MCW starting to put up good stat lines again, KJ outplaying Wiggins even on an off night, Grant making a nice little impact in low minutes, and Covington maybe being a useful NBA player? Slow shooters are kind of a dime a dozen, but stretch fours have some extra utility relative to the Hollis Thompsons of the world. Other than that, I notice that with Detroit's loss tonight we're only 1.5 games worse than them, a team with Josh Smith, Greg Monroe, Drummond, Jennings, Caldwell-Pope, Caron Butler, D.J. Augustin (Chicago's perfectly serviceable starting point guard last year), and a very good coach. Maybe Stephen A. Smith should do dumb pieces on ESPN on whether there are any Pistons fans left, like he's apparently doing for us.
Really unimpressed with Wiggins tonight.
I can't tell if he got outplayed by KJ who airballed like 5 3pointers but remained aggressive all night and fueled his inner Rodman.
What I can say is that that 'passive' knock on him is looking like it may have teeth. He just disappears for stretches, like he's not on the floor. I predict all throughout this season he will show flashes of the star player he can become and that'll be it. Just a tease.
In a game like this with d-league like play o offense, where you would be encouraged to step up, he was just THERE, and that's all.
Maybe this was a down game for him. Beautiful shot though.
The passivity was really apparent in college and it was so annoying that if you brought it up last year people would call you stupid or blame it on Bill Self. Not only was Wiggins the featured guy on that team, especially after Embiid went out, there was so little activity on his part outside of whatever he was asked to do on offense. A guy like KJ had a tip dunk every night. Wiggins rarely did anything like that, and he's a superior athlete. He'll be good but he'll underachieve unless he really changes.
I think it was less about being passive and more about his handle not being developed enough to take advantage of his athletic gifts.
I think the end result is still the same, in that he's not as good as he could be. And I think the concern is just as legit, as I think there's a decent amount of improvement needed to where he can be as dominant as his potential indicates. That's why I was't as high on Wiggins as many were. But I think it's more about a lack of a basketball skill that comes off looking like passivity on the basketball court.
But, that's very much an argument for last spring, and doesn't matter much to us at the moment.
There's the lack of a refined handle, but he also doesn't make a ton of athletic hustle plays that don't require a handle. Even ignoring blocks, KJ makes a greater impact on a game right now without a handle, and with measurables that are quite a bit less impressive than Wiggins's. I just think it's readily apparent that Wiggins doesn't have a great motor. Not a lousy one either, but not great.
Wiggins is taller than KJ, but is he really that much of a superior athlete- because KJ seems pretty freakish in his own right. Guys who are 6'4.5" just don't do what KJ does. It is not just weakside or chase down blocks. There were times he stood in the middle of the lane protecting the rim like you would expect from a big- and he was altering legitimately altering shots by bigs. He also has a fast 2nd, 3rd, 4th leap that is Rodman-esque.
Not saying he is going to be a star- but I'm not certain I'd put KJ's athleticism way behind anyone in the league. Of SG's, only Wade is similar in terms of length and explosiveness. But KJ lacks Wade's fluidity, shot making and ball skills. But they are in a class of their own in terms of speed/strength/explosiveness at that height.
Well, Wiggins had a 44'' vertical in that non-combine test to McDaniels's 37 inches. His wingspan is only an inch greater than McDaniels, or at least it was when measured in 2013. That surprised me.
Wiggins has the potential to be a better defender than KJ because he is better suited to defend both SG and SF. But I don't think Wiggins will ever be the shot blocker that KJ already is. There is some sort of innate shotblocking skill guys either have or they don't. Like why has Iggy never been much of sa shot blocker? Why can Thad be good at chase down blocks but otherwise almost never block a shot?
O course it is hard to guage what value shot blocking is from the SG positoion. IMO, it could be more valuable than you think if it is combined with say Embiid, Noel and another plus defender at SF. Yo would think it could put most opponents off their game knowing they could be blocked from ahead and behind.
I wouldn't put too much stock in combine numbers in terms of athleticism. Especially not max vertical numbers. Iguodala had worse numbers than McDaniels. Wouldn't you say he's a top 10 athlete of the past decade?
I don't know, the box score doesn't count airballs. Fortunately it's not like they count for negative points or anything so it really doesn't matter; what matters is Wiggins missed just as many shots. How many times did Wiggins use his 44-inch vertical leap to any useful purpose? KJ had 4 blocks and 9 boards.
What if instead of trading for Kirilenko and Karasev, we traded for Kirilenko and Teletovic? Teletovic had 26 and 15 tonight, 14 defensive, 5 threes. 7 other players in the history of the league have done that and the worst player among them was either LaFrentz or Troy Murphy, both pretty nice players. Teletovic is 29 and a free agent after this year, but it would be nice to have a shooter on the team and maybe we could resign him through his prime. I know xsago would love this.
But Teletovic is a productive player and is only making about $3 million. The purpose of trading Kerilenko and Karasev is to avoid paying luxury taxes on two guys that aren't really bringing much to the team.
Thought maybe we could demand him in return for the cap relief we're offering, like Karasev. I mean, what's more valuable to them, the free agent or the kid on the rookie contract they were apparently offering us? I'm not sure.
I'm actually not as big a Teletovic fan as you think. He's a legit stretch 4 though in a league where stretch 4s are valuable (only Curry can match his range). I mentioned acquiring him a long time ago when he was out of the rotation and presumable could've been had for very little in terms of assets (the league wasn't aware of his abilities yet). That ship has sailed though. I don't think he's available anymore and i don't think singing him in FA is a good idea (he'll be worth quite a bit to someone and he's a liability on the defensive end). He does have the ability to fix the Sixers spacing issues though. And he's definitely not gun-shy like Thompson.
Just reading through most of the comments...I would agree on the ugly game. Also Wiggins was very unimpressive. What's worse, he was invisible out there. In contrast, KJ was out there and everyone knew he was. He had a brutal first half in which he barely caught rim on his 3's (maybe 4 at the half?), and he had some bad TO's as well. But he never let his missed opportunities on offense negatively impact his D, and he still stayed aggressive on offense. I'm a bigger fan every game.
Covington is an NBA player. He may be slow, but he has deceptive moves and he'll be able to hit open threes. When Embiid get's here, the spacing will improve and a guy like Covington will have open shots. He's doing what Thompson should be doing.
Lastly, understanding that many of these guys are young and just running around on D without much of an idea what they are doing....it's fun to see the makings of a long, athletic, aggressive defensive team begin to grow. Minny was terrible tonight. Just plain bad. But the sixers length gave them problems on D. It will be fun watching these guys develop. Oh and Grant acts like he belongs. I think he does.
Shout out to Dollar Bill for calling out McDaniels for his lack of rebounds early in the season. The kid certainly heard your complains. Somehow he now has 37 boards in the last 4 games.
I really don't know what to say about KJ. He's simply been so much better than anyone could've expected that it's difficult to put his performance in perspective. What is his upside? How much more can he develop?
He has at least 5 very impressive plays every game now and looks to be improving on a nightly basis. I've been constraining myself so far waiting for the sample size to grow, but he really has blown out even the most optimistic expectations to the degree that he probably has a legit shot to be part of the hypothetical future core. He's definitely played himself in the conversation along with the lottery picks.
I would echo what you said and what was mentioned above. It is actually interesting that to the extent "basketball IQ" was a complaint about KJ, he seems to have a really good feel for using his athleticism.
While Wiggins showed incredible tools last night, KJ was always visible on the court. And I think he makes all of these highlight plays without really sacrificing anything or making dumb decisions when he launches into air. That is not to say he doesnt miss rotations or have a ton to learn but those fast break blocks and putbacks are consistent and insane. It is different than the guy making steals but giving up tons of plays.
I expect the 3 point shot to regress but I am just so excited to watch him over the year.
I like what I see from KJ so far, but it seems to me to be a waste. Since he only has a one year contract due to Hinkie's inflexibility, why would KJ ever want to stay with a team where he endured 70+ losses?
He has at least 5 very impressive plays every game now and looks to be improving on a nightly basis.
I was a KJ fan way before we drafted him but even I never had any idea he could show an uncanny ability to pick things up so quickly.
Early in the season, he would go 1 on 1 with this man off the dribble and get stripped clean. But now he protects the ball with his body and barely attempts crossovers.
Then his forays to the hoop usually would end up in blocks or crazy wild shots being that you can't just rise up over NBA defenders. Now he's using shot fakes, hesitation and even double pumps on dunk attempts to adjust.
On defense earlier, he would pick up quick fouls for being overly aggressive and trying to block shots while on the ball but he has toned it down and now tries to just challenge the shot and not pick up the cheapie.
My greatest issue with him was awareness of spacing and movement when his teammates were driving or cutting, and now he seems to be getting it very well. Even to the extent that he can now execute a decent pick and roll read.
He has always been taking shots within himself and even with increased minutes doesnt really take many bad shots (unless you count open 3s, which is subjective) even when he think's he's feeling it.
The shot is still streaky. The mechanics are questionable and his release point changes when his guarded (higher) as opposed to wide open but I have hope (FT%) that it can be legit.
I honestly don't know what his upside is; is he near a finished product that is adjusting quickly, or is he going to get better steadily like a Paul George as he adds skills like ball handling, or shooting? It's something to look up to in this long season.
(sigh) As much as I like KJ, I REALLY WISH I was saying this about Noel.
"(sigh) As much as I like KJ, I REALLY WISH I was saying this about Noel"
Remember, all rookies are not created equal. KJ is a full year older than Noel and played for 3-years at Clemson before entering the League. Nerlens is 20 y/o coming off of a lost season, having only played 1/2 a year at Kentucky. It's almost like Noel is a freshman in a new school trying to figure out where his next class is and how not get noticed or get in trouble.
I'm THRILLED with what KJ is showing this year! I'm also fully expecting to see some of this from Nerlens as the season progresses, and in seasons to come.
I'm not overly worried about Noel's performance thus far. His peaks and lows are consistent with the performance of other similar type of big men in the past. Players like him take years to develop and rarely have huge contributions before their second contract.
What i am worried about is his lower body strength and weight. You can talk all you want about his jump shot, hands or box out abilities, they are not going to truly make or break his career. His ability to put weight and get stronger will.
I was greeted by a terrible bricked three by McDaniels, then he had one rim out, then Noel had a terrible foul trying to steal the ball from Westbrook, I think. This is fun.
They didn't play too poorly, and Covington really looks rotation-grade right now. Probably not an exceptional shooter, but he brings a lot more to the table than shooting, surprisingly. Activity from Noel on the glass is nice, but I wish he were blocking and altering more shots. MCW's shot selection has gotten really out of control, and a large part of that has to be the guys he's playing with and trying to do too much to keep us in games, but even so, most of his teammates are better options than he is right now. And even Noel, who isn't, should be more involved.
I know. It's just weird that I'm happy because they didn't lose by more than 20.
I think fans love Covington because it's refreshing to see a guy hit better than 28% from 3.
I like what I've been seeing from Noel over the past few games. He seems to have improved at rebounding and looks more confident.
I don't know what to make of MCW. I thought his 40% FG was just a rookie thing or just a product of this system and the players around him. Now I'm thinking that it might be the way he is.
A guy is a non-shooter and really a non-scorer in college, I don't find it surprising when he ramps up his shot attempts in the league and is really inefficient. Some of the shots he takes are as if you're watching a really limited player like Kevin Ollie or something gun for 20 without a skill set. Not just the shot itself, but somehow he doesn't look natural going into these outside shots.
Miami lost by 24 points to the Bucks last night. Right now they're 7th in the conference and would have the 16th selection in the draft if the season ended today. That's not bad compensation for Thad IMO. I expect them to remain in the 7-8 range in the east this year.
Stan Van is this year's Eddie Jordan, and the Pistons are this year's Bucks, but without the injury excuses. You rarely see a team less interested in trying to win a basketball game. The Sixers have no talent, but the Pistons are like a tin man team out there.
We have some talent. Two of the five best rookies in the league, and for all MCW's struggles maybe the best sophomore. Our bench rookie wing had 4 blocks tonight, for the second time in a week.
Some comments from around the league, or really just one comment. While Wiggins continues to sink to new levels of torpor and uselessness (tonight he went 3-13, with one rebound, 0 assists, steals, blocks, or FTA, and two turnovers, while the guy he guarded scored 18 on 12 shots), his teammate Lavine has been surprisingly good. 22 and 10 assists on 15 shots tonight, with just two turnovers. I thought Lavine was at least two years away from being a competent nba player.
Robert Covington killed it tonight. He is officially the hot man shooting wise but he showed more; some good touch, finishing and good reads off the ball. Also his slow-footedness is less pronounced now that he is making better rotations.
KJ continues to be ice cold from outside but as usual doing KJ to help the Sixers win.
Hollis Thompson played well tonight but he is a starter in name only. BB likes to keep the platoons together so he can switch em up so I expect to see more Covington and KJ who played well off each other tonight.
For the Sixers fan that has not concluded that MCW is the worst point guard in the NBA after that horrid stretch, this game was emblematic of why there was excitement about him.
20pts on 8-12, 15 ast but 7 TO (2 or 3 were bad hands IMO), 8 reb, 2blk, 3stl and a whole lot of steady play for 45 long minutes.
Best part was his defense, when on Jennings; he didnt cheat around screens and didnt gamble. Fought hard all night.
I think these non-Wroten games have been the turning point for him. Best player tonight.
Ohh yeah did I also mention that the 2014/15 Detroit Pistons suck?
Drummond looks slow, their guards can't shoot, and Josh Smith needs to be put out of his misery. Tough time to be a Pistons fan.
Somewhere BB is feeling vindicated that Detroit's putrid results are a not indicative on the caliber of coach.
GSW drops the Bulls in Chicago with Curry having a poor shooting night. 112-102
Their 97.6 Def Rtg is good for best in the league.
Iguodala has assumed his bench QB role effortlessly and has found willing comrades in Barbosa? and Speights!, who is thriving in that capacity.
David Lee is expected to be back pretty soon. What to do?
Trade deadline not far off
I feel like Lee could at least replicate Speights's surprising and perhaps unsustainable production. Obviously they need to keep starting Draymond Green.
I finally had a chance to watch the game. Great win, because any win is. How the hell is Detroit getting so little attention for being the complete shit-show that they are? It was great listening to their broadcast crew call the game under the premise that this would be such an easy victory, and surprised that the Sixers actually showed up ("this game actually may go down to the wire tonight").
Very impressed by MCW. His shots at the rim FINALLY started to fall, but more importantly, this was his best game of the year as the teams PG. He ran the show. He really owned the position tonight and lead the team. I really hope he can build of this game.
Brown needs to get some credit for keeping this team together through the first 20 games. I'm happy for him and and these two wins have been effort wins. They are surely not going to win many this year but he has these guys playing hard.
I always thought that if Thompson were on a team like the Spurs he would be "just another solid shooter" in the Spurs arsenal. Meaning he would be another perfect fit. I guy to set up and hit open jumpers. And I thunk he would despite some of his struggles here this year. He's pressing a bit, and when he tries to do more than catch and shoot he gets himself in trouble. Big shot by him tonight. Covington is sure to take some of his minutes down the road.
His struggles this year are partly a result of the team re-working his jump shot this year to speed up his release. I'd expect his percentages to start creeping back up as he begins to form muscle memory.
This would give them shooting, defense and the ability to switch on defense. A bit undersized, but they have issues whatever lineup they have out there. At least this one has some shooters and scorers and some defense and would put MCW and Noel in a position to play towards their strengths. This lineup also is essentially the players getting the heavies minutes recently- so why not start them.
I'd look to trade Wroten fairly soon if he doesn't begin showing some semblance of being a piece that actually fits what the team does on the floor. He's worth more in theory than practice but I have no idea what they could get back and who would want him enough to give up something of value. I don't really consider a 2019 second rounder and a severance player to ax immediately for a few 100 grand in savings to be 'of value' like some other fans do.
I'll +1 your lineup if we can swap Shved around with Luc. It's bad enough that they had to use a roster spot on a rookie's homeboy/guidance counselor or whatever, but does he really have to start too?
I wrote a post kinda like yours up there somewhere. Shved is first on the team in PER with a solid 20, and second in WS/48 and TS% to Covington who's been either hot or inactive, so I expect him to drop some. He works well with MCW and has a jumpshot so I would give him a go to see how it works. If Moute wants to suck, let him do it on the second unit with Wroten who won't pass him the ball.
"Magic Johnson gets how winning teams are built. You don't snag star players by being the 10th-best team in the league.
In the NBA, the best teams start from the bottom. And that's where he hopes the Los Angeles Lakers are headed.
"I hope the Lakers lose every game, because if you're going to lose, lose," said Johnson to Newsday. "I’m serious. If you're going to lose, you have to lose, because you can't be in the middle of the pack. You either have to be great or you have to be bad, to get a good (draft) pick."
Fans may not like to hear it, but that's the truth of how the NBA works. A single player can make a huge impact on a team, but only a few known commodities are available in the NBA draft every year.
If you aren't one of the first teams drafting, you likely miss out on that talent -- which makes it harder to rebuild.
"I'd rather be all the way bad than be in the middle," Johnson."
@WojYahooNBA 76er will acquire Nets' Andrei Kirilenko, a 2020 second rounder, right to swap 2018 seconds and cash for Brandon Davies, sources tell Yahoo.
Deal expected to be finalized on Thursday. Nets likely to send a minor player back to Sixers in deal too, sources said.
Oh here we go a timely example of an "asset" that I was just talking about above.
Hopefully Brandon Davies has a younger brother who is exactly like him and currently modeling his game after his so they can use that 2020 2nd rounder to get him.
To be fair though, there's no way Davies could have fetched anything in a trade a couple months ago. So unless this is strictly to help mitigate Billy King's damage to Prokhorov's bank account then Hinkie did alright.
Davies was just a non-guaranteed contract that King can cut to save a few more tax dollars. Sixers really got next to nothing in return for taking on a bad contract, but whatever. Sor of a non-trade, trade.
He's just trying too hard to figure himself out. He'll learn how to be most effective towards winning eventually, but the roster around him isn't exactly helping him...
New stat to keep track of: # of times Nerlens falls down in a game.
Great effort from him tonight though.
Couldn't tell is Sims was in the doghouse or not. We could have used him tonight; Covington was exposed defensively inside and Grant was exploited by Horford.
So the Sixers are paying a combined $9.7 million for Eric Maynor, Travis Outlaw, Marquis Teague, and Andrei Kerlinko. That's a lot of money for some 2nd round picks.
They may be taking on that salary- but they are not paying a cent, since all o those deals occurred when they were under the salary floor and committed to pay up to the floor one way or another. If anything, the deals at the deadline saved the owners money, since they pay out 1/3 of that year's salary but get full credit towards the floor. And this recent deal includes cash from NJ.
I'm tired of Brown's "Family" talk--always saying how the team is a family and they stick together. Then the Sixer's go and trade Davies for nothing, even after Brown complimented his hustle on multiple occasions. I guess they're a family--that is unless they can get a 2nd rounder 6 years from now for you.
Don't get me wrong, I could care less about Davies. I just wish Brown would not sugar coat this turd with talk about family and brotherhood. If everything goes right, only 2 of the guys playing now will be on the team if the Sixers are ever good. It's a business, Brett.
Keep in mind where he is coming from. Everyone understands the business aspect but in San Antonio I'm sure there is/was a "family feel" around that organization. If Brown is trying to build a foundation for that here, I have no issues. I though it was a nice organizational effort when Brown, Hinkie, MCW, Noel, and Embiid all went to see Saric play over the summer. Doing those things should be looked at as a positive IMO.
More than 2. KJ, Noel, MCW, Covington, Grant, maybe Wroten, even Hollis and just possibly Sims could all be part of a good Sixers team. Maybe even Jakarr, who knows? I think the hope is that about 5 of those guys will be on this team in a few years. Anyway, it's irrelevant. A team like the Spurs has a family-like atmosphere even though the supporting cast varies from year to year and only the core has stayed constant. While the Stephen Jacksons of the world are there, they're family (and indeed, I've read that he and Pop are friends to this day). Family doesn't mean no trades and no one gets let go.
I think we can agree that the earliest the Sixers will be "good" is 2016-17? If so, then Noel, MCW (and maybe Sims as a 11th or 12th man) are the only ones who will be here when the Sixers are good, in my opinion. KJ is on a one year deal. Hollis and Grant are D-leaguers. I am concerned that Covington is not very good once people take away his jump shot, and he is a poor defender. Wroten is my favorite Sixer (just for fun reasons) but he will be an RFA after next year. I don't see Hinkie keeping him. Jakarr is beyond a project.
I also would like to dispute the two replies that said there's a family feel at San Antonio. I never hear Pop say anything campy like that. I hold that the Spurs have more of a corporate attitude.
Maybe I'm just being too negative and jaded due to the prospect of losing this year and next--at a minimum.
Ooohh, you are wrong about this. I've read/heard Pop and the Spurs refer to the team as family many times. i don't view them as having a corporate like atmosphere at all.
As for who's worth keeping, i think you are basing your opinion too much on current ability. All of these guys are young. Even if some look more like D-leaguers than NBA players doesn't mean that they won't be good enough for a good team in a few years.
I don't think too many of these guys will be with the Sixers long term, but some will. Some of MCW, Noel, McDaniels, Wroten, Sims, Thompson, Covington and Grant will be there. How many is impossible to tell right now, but some definitely will. My over/under is on 4.5
I think you are missing the point. It is Brown saying that, not Hinkie. BB may feel just as exposed to all of this as the players do. Sure, he has more leash in theory, but should he feel any safer that he will be around in 2017 when this team does begin to turn.
I agree the culture part is hard, but I commend these guys for the attitude they do take. Bad body language with themselves sometimes, but little fighting with each other.
I mean seriously, I don't think it takes a really rough cutthroat culture to trade Brandon Davies. I think we've been awfully nice letting him play in the league for two years. Even if the Nets cut him, it'll look good on his resume when he seeks work abroad. Who knows, maybe he'll have an nba career because we gave him a chance.
Yeah i agree. While i do think too much roster turnover and treating players unfairly can seriously hamper the culture being built, i don't think cutting someone who should be glad he got a year and half chance in the NBA is going to harm the culture in any way. In fact, i bet Davies is grateful for the opportunity and holds everyone on the Sixers organization at the highest regard. Noon else would have given him this chance.
Right. Davies hustles and is an absolute professional in how he approaches his craft. But, like, you can find guys who hustle, work their asses off, AND are legitimate NBA players. Cultures aren't defined by Brandon Davies'.
I certainly hope that is the worst game we ever see Noel play- and by a wide measure. To say he looked like Stromille Swift on an off night would be unfair to Swift.
I attended the game last night. A few humorous things:
1. I had to really scrap to find someone to attend with me. GF bailed and the list of people interested in a Nets/Sixers game is "limited" these days.
2. My buddy pointed up at the scoreboard with about 9 minutes to go and said "please don't tell me that is true". MCW was the only 76er on the court who had scored a point in the game. I wonder how many times that has happened.
3. The nets have this little sound gimmmick where they tell the crowd to make some noise and play a fake crowd in the background. I thought it was real the first few times and then caught on.... not sure how I feel about that.
MCW looked like the best player on the court to me. And yes, I was the guy throwing in the towel on him about two weeks. I don't know where I stand these days, but he has been much better these past 7 games or so.
Absolutely. Get into game shape and get the feel back for the game. If he can hit an open shot 40% of the time, I would feel good. I don't think he is there yet.
Also - getting the feel for good shots, bad shots, etc. tough with a team of this caliber, but you can see his effectiveness with RC33 on the floor. Leaes me encouarged.
Watching this kid Porzingis...man he looks impressive. From a pure fit perspective, he just might be the best pick for the Sixers. I mean, at 7'1 and he looks like he could play SF in the NBA. He has a nice looking shot (at least from my non-scout's eye), and who knows, when this year shakes out he may be a legit candidate for No 1 overall. He definitely needs to bulk up some but the talent is there. Interestingly the video indicates that Hinkie attended this game, but I guess he does a lot of scouting trips. I have not really considered this kid as a top 4 pick, but I'm sold now. Can't wait to watch more of him.
tough loss; I feel for the WFC crowd. To think their loyalty may finally be rewarded in a rare night where some stars aligned.
didn't watch but it seems that Covington is a legitimate knockdown shooter who can actually play. Hoping that changes Hinkie's raw-athletes tunnel vision a bit.
@ESPNSteinLine ESPN sources say Turkish big man Furkan Aldemir has landed four-year deal in $12 millon range from Sixers, with first two years guaranteed
I saw ankle. This seems like a lot of money for a goodish rebounder/possibly savvy cutter, but he's a pro, Davies was not, and I can't really complain about surrounding MCW and Noel with some competent players. I would like MCW to end the season with some good stats so we can trade him for a good return and draft Mudiay.
I don't mind the contract at all. Who cares about the 3M each of the next 2 seasons. They will be way under the cap regardless. And the team options the 3rd and 4th years will be good whether he is a worthwhile player or not. Worst case, having a 3M non-guaranteed contract is a nice trading chip, as other teams always need those types of deals in order to clear cap space. So worst case, he gets flipped for future assets in a couple of years. Best case, he is a solid rotational big for 3M a year.
Were you talking about KJ? As down as you are on the Sixers, you can't possibly be down on KJ, can you??? I know you hated the pick (for reasons I cannot understand) but he's be revelatory this season.
He hurt his ankle in the prior game, came back to finish but was unable to go the following night.
Just to review, you've said pretty recently that he's "dumb as rocks," has no offensive game at all, that we shouldn't expect him to improve in that regard because he hadn't by the time he was a junior, and that he's a stat-chaser on defense who gambles for blocks.
Yeah, it seems like a lot of money to me too. I didn't quite expect him to sign for the typical minimum per year deal, but this is definitely more than i thought was realistic.
We'll see if he's any good...
I guess they needed a little extra to convince him to come over. But even as I am saying that, it doesn't makes sense since he wasn't doing anything close to special overseas and this is the NBA.
As long as they have team options for the 3rd year I wont lose sleep but yeah too much in my opinion.
It depends on what you consider as special. He wasn't a star in Europe, the way most player that make the jump to the NBA are. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. He's a role player that knows his limitations and doesn't play out of his comfort zone. He's all boards, screens and rolls to the basket. Doesn't have much game outside of that but he's been really god at those areas in Europe.
Overall i think he can be useful in the NBA, but unless surprises i don't expect him to be worth 3 million per year. He's more of a 4th-5th big type of player.
I'd say somewhere between poor man's Varejao and European version of Reggie Evans.
He's nothing special, but he might find a role on the Sixers long term. He has a better chance than the Davies and the Gordon's of the world that's for sure.
This draft class is cursed. Embiid out for the year, Parker out for the year, Randle out for the year, Gordon and Smart both with lengthy injuries, Vonleh has struggled with injuries...
We are down to 2 of the top 7 drafted players being mostly healthy (and remember it was an 8-9 player draft). Only Wiggins and Exum have been healthy so far...
Sure, Wright is far and away the best of those mentioned. But he's on the last year of a deal, will have a ton of suitors, and I can't see him wanting to go back to Boston. The pick the Sixers got (Miami 2015) is far better than the pick Boston got.
Yes, but we got a draft pick in the 11-16 range. The Celtics got Brandan Wright, who may well not be as good as whoever we pick there, who isn't on a rookie contract.... and who is a free agent. So the Celtics got approximately the 25th pick in the 2016 draft (this year the pick is protected 15-30), Crowder, and Brandan Wright's Early Bird rights (he was only signed for two years, so all Boston gets are "Early" Bird rights, which aren't as useful as Bird rights in resigning a player).
I'd say Crowder is in the same boat as LRMAM and Shved (possibly even worse than them). Just because he plays for a good team doesn't mean he's anything special.
Anyway, all 4 of those guys are mostly there as salary filler. Wright was the only big expiring contract Dallas had. Not sure he's there because of his value as a player to begin with. And him being a free agent in the summer minimizes his value to the Celtics in the trade.
Brandon Wright has been averaging 8.8 points on 68% shooting and 1.6 blocks in only 18 mpg. He's an underrated player and is expected to get a good contract next summer. He's young, Boston needed a center, and I guess this moves them first in line for contract negotiations.
It's still a lousy trade for Boston. Id take the #15 pick over the #25 pick and a half year rental of Brandon Wright.
I was talking about the package of Crowder and Wright being superior to that of Shved and Luc, not Crowder individually. Individually, yeah he's in the same boat, but Wright tips the scale.
Wright has quietly been excellent this season, like Stan already mentioned above. He's actually shooting 75% (according to BR), 26.1 PER on the year, and his total win shares are higher than Dirk's. If Boston is able to resign him, then Wright + 25 is a better return than 15 IMO.
Either way we're splitting hairs here. Both teams got subpar returns.
corey brewer and turiaf( who might get re-routed to a 3rd team) to houston for troy daniels the kings 2nd rounder this year and HOU's 2nd rounder next year
Can't say I share your enthusiasm for 2nd round picks. I've been critical of Shved and still believe he's on his way to a Euro-league contract next season (unless some team here overpays), but he was putting in quality minutes for the Sixers so obviously he had to go. This deal was just more of the same.
The 2nd round pick they're getting for him won't match Shved's production, I'd bet on that.
Oh and yes, thank god they got some much needed cap relief, now they finally have some breathing room.
btw, I like Rondo going to the Mavs. He'll fit in well there..basically anywhere where he's got offensive talent around him and he doesn't have to score too much he'll fit in well.
You know what the response to that will be. "Either you love everything Hinkie is doing, or you want the team to be a perennial #8 seed." The Hinkie ass kissers are worse than the Tea Party with their reductive bullshit. If you want to be reductive, I think the other side of the coin is a lot closer to the truth. Here's what the Sixers have as a reward for their tank job, so far:
- Maybe a decent 3&D guy (who currently is shooting 30% from three, and that number is dropping like a rock, so I guess he's just a D guy) who's probably going to be making somewhere around the MLE in his second season. And that's exactly what a team with nothing needs, is to pay a perimeter defender only the MLE.
- A below-average PG who can't shoot.
- A decent defensive big who can't rebound and can't give you anything on the offensive end...at all. Ben Wallace without the rebounding.
- Greg Oden v 2.0
- Frederic Weiss v 2.0
- a bunch of 2nd round picks
- Their own pick at the top of a lottery headlined by a pudgy PF w/ no athleticism and a PG who fled to China. A pick in the middle of this draft, that everyone is super-excited about.
I'm all for building through the draft. Someone wake me up when that plan actually begins.
Some of that's fair and some of it isn't. I think what you say about KJ and MCW and Noel is accurate, today. But of course, MCW could get quite a bit better. Conley and Lowry and Bledsoe hadn't shown nearly as much as he has by their second seasons. I wouldn't put a ton of faith in MCW because he's fairly old and still has one of the worst jump shots in the league, but I would at least expect the turnovers to drop with experience. Noel could improve his rebounding and offense. Camby, a player of similar build, was a poor rebounder his first few seasons and got to be one of the league's best. I think it's unlikely that Noel will always be quite this small and bad on the glass. Embiid may or may not be Oden 2.0; our team's doctors don't think he is, but they may be wrong.
In any event, Noel, MCW, Embiid and KJ aren't perfect prospects, but while I wouldn't say that if you don't agree with Hinkie you must want the 8th seed, I would say that you at least have to point to who he should've drafted instead. So far Wiggins isn't making the Wiggins-at-any-cost strategy look too good. I guess we could fault Hinkie for failing to draft Giannis, or even Shabazz Muhammad, who's starting to play really well (3rd highest PER among small forwards). But Giannis still hasn't actually done anything and Shabazz looked really dubious a year ago. Some people think Hinkie should have drafted Exum this year, but I doubt you're one of them. And KJ, limited as he is right now, was obviously a tremendous value pick where he was taken. So I don't know that you really have a problem with Hinkie's drafting, or just a problem with who Hinkie's been able to draft.
As for this upcoming draft, the quality of which isn't Hinkie's fault, you didn't mention Towns, and I see nothing wrong with Mudiay fleeing to China. Derrick Rose would have done the same had someone not taken the SAT for him. He turned out fine and I don't even think he's unintelligent, just poorly educated.
Yes, McDaniels was a really good value pick. Of course, when you sign him to a one-year contract and have to either let him walk or pay him MLE-level money in his second season, I'm not sure how great the value of the pick was. I'm not heartened by the possible best-case scenarios you came up with for Noel and MCW, either. Three guys started out as shit and turned into something of some value...three out of how many guys who started as shit?
Something that also has to be taken into account is exactly how much development is really going to happen for a player who might have an outside shot at being something in this league? They're playing with absolute dregs, against the second and third units of every other team. Really, against opponents who don't give a crap. It's like the Globetrotters playing the Washington Generals, every night. They've got a nutless coach who's essentially going through the motions and cashing his checks while the GM makes a mockery of the entire situation. How could you possibly develop anyone under these circumstances? It's funny, they're going to have a state-of-the-art practice facility in Camden, and a bunch of AAU-level "professionals" practicing how to lose in it.
If they ever do get lucky with one of these high draft picks, that's when you can start the clock on the team building, because there is nothing in place. There is just nothing here at all, not on the floor, not on the bench. It's ground zero after two years of this mess and the best advocates of the strategy can come up with are insane comps showing I don't know what...that one guy out of a thousand somehow rose from the below-mediocre level all of these players currently reside at? Or the great diagnosis of a medical staff that let their Rookie Of the Year finish out a 19-win season with a shoulder in desperate need of surgery? And really, this is the same medical staff that gave the OK to the Bynum deal. That happened after Harris bought the team. But now I'm supposed to be heartened with their take on Embiid, despite the broken back and broken foot after his first 20 games of competitive basketball.
Ugh. This entire situation just makes me wish I grew up a hockey fan.
Do you really think the medical staff gave the ok on the Bynum deal? 24 year old franchise centers just don't get acquired for lottery protected picks and some guy who couldn't get off the bench. I think Harris OK'd the trade knowing it could give him the reason to blow up the team.
Wow, that is some extreme conspiracy theory you have. The Bynum trade was a disaster, but this is the first I've heard anyone suggest the Sixers made that trade hoping Bynum would fail. If that was the case, Harris could have much easily passed on paying the extra dollars to amnesty Brand and add vets and he could have just started the fire sale right then and there. No reason to trade away 3 years worth of 1st round picks along with Iggy in order to start rebuilding. They could have simply traded away Iggy for a pick. The Bynum move was a horrible trade, but I really don't see some evil plan as its impetus.
As a caveat, I tend to be a glass half full guy. I can understand a large portion of your view, but I don't think its that unreasonable to take the other side.
I don't agree with all of Hinkie's picks or strategy, but I think it comes down to a few things:
1. Do you think Embid could be a franchise player or not. You seem to be putting this probability at
2. Do you really think Okafor + Towns are poor prospects. I am not all that high on Towns from what I have seen, but I think Okafor is the most polished big man since Sullinger (yes I get the joke) however with more athleticism than you would think. His defense is awful but I am okay with that given how good his low post game is and high post passing game is.
3. I just don't have the same doubts on development. It is so easy for all of us to watch game to game and miss what might happen year to year. I am also looping in players signings into this. Covington can shoot and I am fairly optimistic on him being developed as well. Look around the league and consider how long it takes Trevor Ariza, Brandon Wright, Kawhi Leonard, etc. to become real players.
I don't think Okafor is going to be dominant in the NBA, though it might be nice having one guy who isn't completely useless on the offensive end.
Basically it's just rinse and repeat until they win the right lottery and get the next LeBron. In the mean time, they may as well just forfeit the games. If they take Okafor that will be five top ten picks used on PF/C in a three-year span. That doesn't sound like team building to me.
But you also haven't thought anyone was going to be a dominant guard/forward/center in any of the drafts. I think you were fairly positive on Wiggins towards the draft, but I think you would have retracted those thoughts after seeing what he has done at this point. Maybe if we just get all of these mediocre guys (per your view), we will just be the best team in a mediocre league fairly soon.
There is no such thing as the perfect prospect ex-Lebron. Okafor looks like a stud offensive big to me. Maybe in the Al Jefferson camp with better passing.
I think you would be best off to avoid the sixers until post 2015 free agency. You won't enjoy watching these guys develop at this stage in their careers.
I agree that Hinkie apologists can be brutal. I till don't agree with the Saric pick and other small things. I question how MCW will develop without shooters etc. But then bringing in Covington and bringing over Aldemir reverses my tune a bit.
I don't think the forced conspiracy narrative really works. Just don't watch and come back when they are ready to push for success.... which in your mind is never, and in my mind will be next summer.
I don't find Wiggins' numbers all that alarming. The two key things for a guy who you want to be a wing scorer are 3pt shooting and free-throw rate. He's doing fine in both areas. Needs to put on some weight, probably improve his shot selection and he'll be fine. Don't think MIN was a very good situation for him, but at 19 his numbers are fine by me. I'd be much happier if they had Wiggins right now than Embiid, even taking his "slow" start into account.
Yeah Wiggins is doing fine considering that pretty much everyone else in that top 8 group is injured now except Exum. How about if they had Parker right now instead of Embiid?
He's made 12 of just 33 threes, out of 288 shots. If he made just one less three, he'd be shooting 33% instead of 36%. It's a really small sample. Anyway, I think it's probably a concern, even at 19, when a guy is shooting 39% on twos. Giannis shot 44% inside the arc at 19; McGrady, 46% at 18; LeBron, 44% at 18; Paul George, 54% at 20; Durant, 45% at 19; DeRozan, 50% at 20. Here are the modern-day players I could find who shot 40% or less from two in their rookie seasons: Brandon Jennings, Kemba Walker, Kirk Hinrich, Dajuan Wagner, Adam Morrison, Rubio, Eddie Griffin, Hansbrough, J.R. Bremer, Rasual Butler, T.J. Ford, D.J. Augustin, Austin Rivers, Ilyasova, Steve Blake, Chris Duhon, Corey Brewer, Kyle Lowry, DerMarr Johnson. (And some lesser names here: http://bkref.com/tiny/bOOTv ). Not a really inspiring list; there are only about 3 wings on it, and the wings that are on the list were pure shooters or total flops.
Well, so far I went through the top 22 rookies in scoring with 2P% between 40 and 44% since 1993, and of those only Caron Butler, Russell Westbrook, Bradley Beal and Raymond Felton were this bad after 25 games. Beal isn't a great comp; even in this season, his 2P% is still 41%. Butler was a disappointment. Westbrook's great. His problem in his rookie season was his finishing; Wiggins's is getting to the rim at a pretty low rate and terrible mid-range efficiency.
To sort of continue the discussion from above, it seems to me that some of you are too down on the young guys coming in. I'd say from a purely statistical standpoint it's pretty safe to say that there will be at the very least 5 top 50 NBA players in these 3 draft classes even if a lot of things go wrong (and looking at history, realistically that number is closer to 15 - it's usually 5 per draft class). I don't think this sample of 3 draft classes (that coincides with the Sixers rebuild) is any different from any 3 year sample in the past.
Just for fun, would you guys name your top 5 or top 10-20 prospects in the 2013, 2014 and 2015 draft classes combined? And not just when they were drafted but you can use what you already know. I think it would be a nice exercise that might help us determine where the Sixers are headed.
FWIW, my top 15 would be (as of right now):
Antetokounbo
Embiid
Exum
Okafor
Noel
-------------
Wiggins
Towns Jr
Parker
Gordon
Mudiay
-------------
Saric
Winslow
MCW
Oladipo
Randle
I'm a little irrationally high on Exum and if it were up to me i'd probably still take him over anyone, but my gut feeling aside this is a more reasonable outlook right now. I used "---" just to separate top 5 and top 10.
So before starting to bash the Sixers organization for the picks, lets just take a step back and evaluate. To me, right now, the Sixers look like they are well on their way to have 5 of the top 15 players/prospects from these draft classes. I'd say that's pretty good.
P.S. Look, i get Brian's pessimism about Embiid. His injury scares me too and Brian's right that Parker's is less dangerous long term even if it takes more time to heal. But i don't think anyone can doubt his talent. And i think the fact that most of the top prospects are injured right now serves as a cautionary tale about avoiding injured players during the draft just because they are injured. Knowing what they know now, would the Bucks still have taken Parker over Embiid?
Giannis tops out at like Iguodala in his prime IMO, maybe top 15, not top 10 in the league. Think Wiggins and Parker are the only other guys on the list w/ a realistic shot of reaching that level, but it's going to take a decent amount of development. If Embiid can ever stay healthy enough to stay on the floor for a full season, he'll show glimpes of being a potential top-10 player, but doubt his career will be long enough to reach that level and/or his athleticism will outlast the injuries to the point where he can be dominant.
Noel needs to be a dominant rebounder, and probably block more shots than he does right now, for his defense to make up for his lack of offense to the point where he's considered an elite player.
Anyway, my point isn't really about the quality of these three drafts. My point is they're still at step 0 in the rebuilding process after two years, and they're probably going to remain there for at least a couple more years, and they're more than happy to trot out this disgrace of a roster for several more seasons. They're a joke, and the league is going to be forced to do something about it, unfortunately they don't really have a lot of options.
a bad joke. sixers are trash. what is perplexing are the happy faces in stands at wfc cheering on these stiffs/incompetents. attending only makes sense if you don't care about basketball quality. disgraceful product. the upside down cake baked by harris, hinkie and brown should be served in each of their hometowns.
"gonna keep bangin' out good days"
"it's not about wins and losses, it's about a process"
- brett brown, the wealthy gym rat with a career record of 21-86
For all the criticism about the organization's "failure" to make KJ sign a deal he does not want to sign (which I think is a joke because this teams needs talent where they can find it), the early returns on the Covington signing sure look good. He's under contract through the 2017-18 season at roughly $1MM/yr. He is showing something new every game and looks like he absolutely belongs in the NBA.
Grant looked good tonight too. Noel is starting to get more comfortable with the things he knows how to do (face the basket, quick hooks, etc..)rather than forcing a low-post game which may never happen. I like the way they are bringing him along as well as his response.
Good win tonight. I love the disruptive length of this team on the defensive end. It gave Orlando fits in the 4th quarter and they had no answers. The guys on this team play hard for each other. Great to see. BB is doing some good things.
This isn't really news, it's just the national media catching up with it. They've been in the 12-14 range for about a month now. And they'd be even better if they weren't turning the ball over at a ridiculous rate which is leading to a lot of transition opportunities. There was a video clip with Brett Brown on ESPN a while ago (recorded at the end of November when the Sixers overall D was a slightly worse) where Brown mentioned that the Sixers defensive efficiency in halfcourt sets only is in the 6-8 range (apparently they track those stats too but i don't think they are publicly available).
The offense on the other hand is an entirely different story. Right now it's historically bad - i think worst in the modern era. It's a very bad combination of huge turnover rate and bad three point shooting. Most offensive categories are regular bad, except TO rate where they are truly putrid.
Yeah that was the offer (although they were some discussions about swapping Landry for Williams).
Overall, it's shocking this may have been a good decision by SVG. If he doesn't think he can recover his trade value at least to the degree where they can get cap relief, this may have been the right move.
In a statement released by the team, Pistons head coach and President of Basketball Operations Stan Van Gundy said, "Our team has not performed the way we had expected throughout the first third of the season and adjustments need to be made in terms of our focus and direction. We are shifting priorities to aggressively develop our younger players while also expanding the roles of other players in the current rotation to improve performance and build for our future. As we expand certain roles, others will be reduced. In fairness to Josh, being a highly versatile 10-year veteran in this league, we feel it's best to give him his freedom to move forward. We have full respect for Josh as a player and a person."
It's actually looking like he has a lot of suitors, and most of them are legit contenders even. Houston and Dallas are the frontrunners, but also LAC, Memphis, Miami, and the Kings are all scrambling to try to get something done (according to Marc Stein). Miami is even applying for a disabled player exception (McRoberts), so they could trump Dallas and Houston with a better money offer.
Rondo is a former Oak Hill Academy teammate of Smith but I think he'll choose the Rockets over the Mavs because of Howard and more playing time. Houston still has their biannual exception too.
The Sixers are the only ones with enough cap room to pick him up off the waiver wire. I used to think he'd be great in Philly, like 3+ years ago
Looks like Bosh is out tonight, so that's nice. He had 30 the first time Sixers played Miami.
Any news on who might replace Turiaf whenever they release him? I was kinda hoping they would fly McRae over so we can get an early look at him but I don't know how realistic that is.
picking off where sixerfan left off
Up 84-82 after Grant's layup. Ad-1 FT coming after TO.
Greant is BEASTING off the pick and roll on the Heat's slower defenders. Good for him.
Sixers D tougher and more physical but Heat are also missing 3s so that helps.
89-86 Sixers
Wade back in to restore order after his bench coughed up double digit lead.
FTs for Birdman should make this a 1 point game.
MCW taking some ill advised shots as usual.
Key turnovers avoided could have given us a comfortable lead.
LRMAM with clutch 1 on 1 layup. Could be POTG
With 89-87 1:56 left. It wnet something like this:
Wade iso pull up 2pt shot. brick
Covington FG miss.
Wade pull up 3. brick
MCW pull up 3. brick
Heat FG miss, rebound off Noel's stony digits. Heat 3 pt attempt miss.
Offensive rebound, Heat 3pt shot brick.
Covington rebound. Fouled = 2FT made
91-87
Essentially game over after quick two attempt misses for Heat.
It's a win. POTG will be crowned by whoever watched the whole game.
Sixers D forced a crapton of turnovers in the 3rd. Think they picked up on Heat's offeensive set after the first half. Heat personnel didnt look good today.
Dwayne Wade looked terrible out there. I can see why Lebron left. It must be frustrating watching Wade chuck up a long 2 knowing that he's going to miss it and kill the drive.
Jerami Grant looks like he's going to be at the least a solid NBA player.
2nd straight game Covington went 1-5 from 3. His 3% is going down but he did have 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, and 1 block to go along with his 11 points.
I wonder how many of MCW's turnovers are due to Noel's concrete hands.
Scouting reports have caught up to KJ and his few moves can be taken away. The 3 is not falling and his % has come down to 30s and still falling. He still continues to ball. Another furious put-back dunk should make the highlights tonight.
Scouting report has also been filled out on Covington and he has been chased off the 3pt line. He obliges and puts it on the floor but the results are putrid honestly. Still appreciate the effort. We probably need better screens and more cuts to open him up.
Nerlens continues to be a work in progress. He is now the defensive anchor for this team. When he was switched on Wade tonight, he was amazing. The end result was a banked 2pt shot from 18-19 ft but the sequence showed his unique versatility and ability to bail us out in the perpetual switching defensive scheme. Offense continues to be lapses and steady progress. If someone can chart his rebounding rate these last 10 games, I think it's going in a good direction.
MCW - a mystery at this point. Reserve judgement. When he plays well (tonight) we usually have a good chance to win.
Jerami Grant - too soon to tell but he looks really good. No offensive polish but like KJ he maximizes what he has. His presence has boosted our ability to clean up boards and work inside. A Reggie Evans with some grace. Made a 3 tonight.
I don't think Covington has been that bad when forced to drive after being chased off the line. I've see a couple nice little euro-steps this year and he has some sneaky smooth moves which get him to the hoop. Honestly I've been impressed with that part of his game.
Love the way Grant has been playing. These second round picks get destroyed by many on this site but honestly this is the real reason why the 2014 draft was projected to be so good. When all the hype on Wiggins and company started to wind down a bit towards the end of the 2014 college season and you got to see some of the flaws of the top picks, the tremendous depth in the class never wavered. Guys like Grant and McDaniels in the second (and others who slipped) are what the long-term story of this draft class will be about.
Hats of to the tremendous effort on the defensive end. It got so bad for Miami on the offensive end that at one point they weren't even thinking about running plays, but rather just trying to not turn the ball over. The length on this team is going to be a force.
This last part is especially true. During the last 15-20 minutes of the game, Miami simply didn't run anything. Their offense was destroyed by the Sixers activity on the defensive end and they eventually just regressed to Wade isos and some ill advised pull up long two, just so they can avoid turning the ball over.
The Sixers offense wasn't anywhere near good in the game, but they managed to grind out a win just depending on their second half defense (they came back from 23 down early in the 3rd) which was quite incredible (wreaking havoc all over the floor). Miami may have had 15 turnovers in the second half alone (and most of the were steals or off some type of deflections).
Yeah i think we already have a pretty good feel about most of these guys.
McDaniels - spectacular athlete, great shotblocker (especially for a wing), terrible ball handler and a work in progress in his catch and shoot threes. His upside i think is limited (his future i think is as a 2nd or 3rd best wing on a team) but he's definitely a keeper as long as the contract situation gets resolved.
Grant - another great athlete with a jump shot that's a work in progress. He reminds of a young Thad a lot. His handle is ok i think, especially at PF and i like how strong he is with the ball, when driving to the basket. That can be a real strength if he's in the froncourt and not on the perimeter. I think his future is as a small ball 4 rather than a wing player (even though he might be able to guard wings). I think he has enough size (length), rebounding instincts and strength to effectively guard bigs inside. I didn't think he had that during the draft (when i thought he was an athletic wing without a jumpshot). He'll be a quality rotation player going forward.
Covington - regardless of sample size, it's pretty obvious the guy can shoot. His jumpers don't just go in, they look good, especially his FTs. He doesn't offer much other than shooting but he's been ok driving when opponents close out on him and he's shown adequate feel for the game in all other aspects of offense (passing spacing, cutting, going after the offensive glass etc.). Defensively he's never going to be great, but he hasn't been terrible on the wing, which is an improvement on where i thought he'd be. He's rebounding fairly well for a wing, so there's that. Gets his share of steals and blocks too. He too looks like a legitimate rotation wing going forward. And f he keeps shooting like that, that contract is going to be a huge bargain.
MCW - impossible to tell right now. I've never seen a player has so much variance on a game to game and week to week basis. He looks more like a rookie would this year than he did last year.
Noel - Does a ton of great stuff defensively, but will not maximize his potential until he adds significant strength. That hurts him especially on the offensive end (by far the biggest reason why he's that inefficient).
As for the others, Sampson is very active defensively and has a nice handle for his size, but he's simply not an NBA player at the moment. He's nice as a 14th-15th man, maybe, but that's definitely not what the Sixers should be after right now. Thompson hasn't been good this year, but i do think he's a legitimate 10th man wing in the NBA. Sims continues to look like a nice bench big. Wroten is Wroten. Spark off the bench, that can be useful in the right amount of doses, but can hurt you if you give him too much freedom. Some type of non-jumpshooting version of Jamal Crawford.
Grant and Jakarr seem like similar NBA experiments, with Grant being a bit farther along because a freak athlete can get by more easily as a combo forward then as a wing. But both guys are the types of players who could be valuable if they ever learn how to play NBA level basketball. At very least, having those types of versatile athletes fits well in terms of the type of disruptive defense they are looking for- even if they probably should be honing their craft in the D-League.
I wonder how many of those types of guys ever learn the game enough to be impact rotation players. I'm sure most end up as LRMAM type journeyman.
Jakarr has made a nice jump over the last 10 or so games. If you think about the amount responsibility Brown has put on him at times during that stretch (spot PG duties for a 6'8 UDFA Forward??), I'm surprised he's finishing the month in the position he is. He's still obviously a big work in progress on the offensive end, but he's playing more within the flow of the game now. And he's looked better with both his shooting and shot selection. On the D end he's flat out impressive.
I can't say enough how much I like the direction this team is going as far as versatile, long, lean athletic body types, and the ability to switch up on defense. Can they shoot? No. But these guys are going to be pieces. The shooters will come. I'll echo what Derek has written that it sure would be nice to somehow pry Jimmy Butler away from Chicago next year. Although I think they realize he's a max player now and will find a way to pay him. That $2MM or so dollars they were apart in negotiations last year is gonna come back to haunt them.
Here's something very interesting that i recently discovered:
The Sixers are no.2 in the league in defensive efficiency in the month of December so far. That's the last 11 games. It's absolutely crazy given the lack of experience and familiarity on the team.
They are still a horror show on the other end though.
a bit of a statistical anomaly. teams sometimes play flat against sixers (another game on slate of 82). heat up 23, checked out too early, to their discredit. when the downeast napoleon has his raw, athletic troops charged and focused, disruptions can occur. the puppies vs. the too tolerant owners = surprises. I don't expect clamps on prepared teams though. see upcoming west coast rigors, beginning tonight.
They've also lost by 15+ points in 5 of the 11 games they've played so far in the month of December. That might have something to do with it as well.
Anyway, I was impressed with their defensive performance against Miami. Near the end of the game it seemed like Miami was too scared to drive to the basket in fear of getting blocked or turning the ball over.
152 assists, 95 turnovers. 40% from field. 26% from beyond arc. mcw. what a floor general. is playin' like he bulked up on potato salad this summer. yet sixers continue to give him the minutes and the ball, feature him. a pampered eager beaver with many holes in his game.
Not to say he's quick with the ball or anything but he looked statue-esque when he was on Lillard at the end of the half there with like a minute left.
They outscored Portland by 30+ in the paint, yet lost by 20. Portland was hitting jumpers all over the place (18 threes and maybe 10 mid range jumpers made).
Their offensive performance was somewhat fluky, but it also shows how bad the Sixers are in the shooting department. You can't win just by scoring in the pain in the modern NBA.
'fluky'?
No I dont agree. Sixers allowed them to launch 43 3 pt shots, with a good percentage of them being very open looks. If you take that many you gotta hit some right? Even moreso for one of the best 3pt shooting teams in the league.
This one was on bad defense; they just didn't play smart. A lot of broken plays that ended up in an open 3 but a lot of mental farts too. They didn't prepare well enough for the Blazers' offensive spread out style. Or at least it looked that way.
44-32 Jazz up at half.
MCW is 1-13 from the floor; just not making any shots, feet set and all.
Noel bested by Favors all night. His over-help on pick and rolls has enabled a clear lane for the roll man to the hoop.
Wroten the only bright spot; basically doing the Wroten thing with reckless abandon.
Furkan Aldemir looked like he can play basketball. Quicker on lateral than you think. Good screens but not much so far.
It's easy to say this team just sucks and be done with it but it's better to see what causes them to play so badly and tonight as the Jazz announcers simply stated; there is no offense, just a bunch of one on one with guys who cant shoot.
Hope for better ball movement in 2nd half.
One thing I notice about Noel is he doesn't appear to want any parts of contact. Yes he's naturally a slim human being, but bulking up will only help him so much. He needs toughness to play in the NBA. Too often he gets knocked off his spot (on both sides of the floor) because he just doesn't put up a fight. Also, when a shot goes up, he doesn't attack to offensive boards but prefers to drift around the free throw line, or away from the basket in general. That has to change. Overall I still think he's developing at the right pace, and he's still young and trying to find his way. Time will tell where his place on this team will be. His instincts on defense are very impressive and It will be fun watching him develop as a perimeter defender and overall disrupter. But I worry about his general toughness. I hope to see him fight a bit more on both ends.
A lot of guys battled tonight and that was good to see. Not sure what the score would have been if not for the jolt Wroten gave them off the bench. He was a lifeline early on tonight when nobody could do anything on offense. He gave the team a chance.
It was funny listening to Harping do the game for Utah and gush about how great Utah has drafted versus the Sixers. Now I love Favors. And Exum, while not the least bit impressive tonight, is a guy I liked a lot pre-draft. But this is a franchise that just spent two straight lottery picks on PGs. And I always felt they built their roster without a plan about what the end goal was. A lot of pieces, some of them good ones, that don't quite fit together. And now they have to pay everyone. Then he talks about Embiid like he was already a wasted pick. Thanks, but I'd happily take the Sixers future over Utah.
The point on Noel is valid. I only watched first half last night but got to see some Aldemir. That guy plays tough. It was a 2minute span where he MADE SURE he the defender felt his pick, and then as the shot went up on defense, he got in position and made sure his ass was hitting someone. He has his limitations, but he was fun to watch. I have to imagine it will be good for Noel to practice against him day to day. Hopefully he plays that way in practice as well.
I actually find Noel and MCW to be a bit soft in the toughness category. This was something I always loved about Embid at Kansas. He will taunt you and get chippy and get emotional. I know you can't do all of that when you aren't good, but you need to develop it as some point. I liked what Noel did to Bledsoe, I would like him to bulk up and do more of that.
As a side point, I think Karl Towns was showing this against Louiseville. I think Towns would be a nice fit next to Noel and could be a nice fit to my idea of Embid.
Yeah I've been on the Towns bandwagon as well. His size, range, and athleticism make him an ideal fit for the sixers. I'd take him No. 1. I would love to be able to nab Hezonja with Miami's pick. He'll most likely be gone by then.
I think a pick like Towns plus the additions of Embiid and the other first rd pick would make this team attractive to a free agent(s). Next season could be a real fun one to watch.
It's really weird that the Sixers have barely played their best 5 man unit, which is so obvious even if you don't look at any stats:
MCW / McDaniels / Covington / LRMAM / Noel
They've only logged 27 minutes together all season long, which is a little baffling IMO. It doesn't have to be the starting lineup (i'm fine with Thompson starting over McDaniels) but they should definitely finish games with it. I think they've played that lineup twice at the end of games so far and won both games.
Just play those guys and give rotation minutes to Wroten, Thompson and Sims and you have a functional team (they'll still be bad but not this bad, especially not offensively).
We'll see what Aldemir can bring soon, but Sampson simply put shouldn't be getting any minutes let alone start and Grant has too big of a role IMO. And for some reason Brown keeps playing MCW with non-shooters, when it's pretty clear that MCW is the type of PG that absolutely needs shooters around him to be successful. Wroten on the other hand can probably survive without many shooters because his game is driving recklessly to the rim regardless of how packed it is anyway.
27 minutes doesn't say much of anything as it pertains to the effectiveness of a unit.
Only one shooter, Covington, in your bunch, and he's coming back to earth with increased opponent attention.
EVERY point guard needs shooters, even exceptional talents like Pistol, Tiny & A.I., BUT not every point guard knows how to set shooters up for success OR carries the propensity to sublimate ego for such an unglamourous, "secondary" task.
Of course it's a small sample. I'm not saying otherwise. But considering it's a pretty obvious lineup to give heavy minutes to, they've somehow been reluctant to do it. And it's absolutely worth a shot to see if the team is better that way than they are right now.
it's a bit harder now that KJ has regressed shooting wise but I think that lineup plays well with each other. KJ and Covington do similar things on offense and Noel with a small 4 is a very quick defensive lineup. Defensively I like that lineup. As it seems that no one can shoot, might as well not give up points.
My biggest qualm with Brown is the absolute inconsistency of his lineups. I know we've had a slew of injuries and all but he keeps experimenting. I think if something works, try and stick with it and build off that. BB seems to fall in and out of love quickly. These guys barely know how to play off each other; it's impossible to expect them to make it work in whatever permutation you decide to go with.
I also think Brown has experimented too much: no lineups have played more than 83 minutes total all season long - which is kind of ridiculous.
But i also think Hinkie has kind of put him in a tough situation with a constant flow of different bodies. Add the injuries and it would have been difficult to have some consistency anyway. But BB has to have some of the blame to. Starting Jakarr Sampson can't be the answer to anything he was thinking about...
I don't see any way in hell that lineup would be able to compete on the offensive end. Noel, LRAM and McDaniels are less than zero offensively. Covington can maybe shoot a little bit. MCW is the only one who can create a shot..but he can't shoot. What a disaster. They'd have to be the best defensive lineup ever, which they wouldn't be. Probably be light on the boards as well.
My point isn't that they are going to suddenly become a good team. It's that that lineup is absolutely worth a shot. It makes too much sense. And i'd bet they'd be better overall than they are now.
Jazz crew's comments on the rebuilding process are laughable, saying the Jazz have more of a future than the Sixers. They have some good players, yes. Future, No. It is interesting how once you get your star player all the trashy mediocre parts suddenly start to fit in. No star player to build around = 0 future. To make matters worse, they are in the Western Conference. As much as this carnage sucks I am fine with rolling the dice again and again.
Jazz's length and quickness bothered MCW last night. He bricked outside shots too but got blocked, and fouled (no calls) inside too.
Noel shies away from contact. Not sure if the reason his screens are so weak is that he wants to avoid it, or to slip quickly enough that he doesn't have to trail MCW to the hoop or the fact that both MCW and Wroten do not wait for the screens/do not lead their man into it.
It feels like 25% of MCW's turnovers come from trying to force dump-offs inside after wild drives to the hoop. Usually I blame Noel's rocks but a bunch went clean though Sims vicinity yesterday. Wonder if he fires them too hard or too small a space.
Jazz owned the boards last night.
The only time we seem to run a set play is after a time-out.
Dante Exum looks like he belongs with the Sixers. Long, athletic, can't shoot. The physical tools was one of the main reasons he was projected to be the best guard in the draft. So far I have seen little explosiveness. Athleticism wise he doesn't look special. He has good vision for a guard but that's not the reason he was so highly touted. Whenever he had a big game I would watch the highlights and most of them had him shooting 3s, nothing wildly athletic has caught my eye. Of course this is way too early.
Out of curiosity, why do you think Philly's future is so much brighter? Favors is better than any big we have on the roster, Hayward is better than any wing, and most people seem higher on Exum than any guard on our roster. Is it because they're paying Hayward and Favors? I thought the consensus was the cap was going up so much, pretty much every contract signed under the current CBA was going to look like a bargain. If the cap is really going to skyrocket in two years, doesn't that make the Sixers' perceived salary cap advantage pretty much worthless? It means teams with actual pieces in place will also suddenly have a plethora of cap space...teams that are much more attractive to players who desire to win. Unless you're counting your Embiid's and Saric's before they're hatched, if that's your logic then I disagree for other reasons.
I never said the Sixers' future was brighter. I just put them on the same level as us. That they're essentially just paddling in shallow water.
Signing a star player in Utah seems like a difficult task. The fact that they play in the Western Conference makes their mediocre ceiling very possible.
My understanding is that we are tanking to find that one star player, upon which you can actually have something that resembles a destination for free agents so our cap flexibility doesn't seem like an asset right now to me.
I will concede that you're right about the quality of their players.
My argument is the destination point of all of that. For both of us, it's still zero.
If you want to dumb it down, you could say I am hinging my hopes on an injured center. but to me that's no different from the Andrew Bynum fiasco anyway.
Pride, respectability are transient things to me, so I am more comfortable with the status quo.
I think most of the debate on this site is really as simple as: how do you value Embid and our number one pick this year. I respect that you don't put too much value in Embid. I can also respect not thinking much of a mysterious first rounder in the upcoming draft. I like Okafor and Towns a lot.
I think I would trade our future with the Bucks, but not the Jazz. That is given my view on Embid. If we don't get a superstar out of Embid or the upcoming draft, then we are left with a lot of scrambled assets and cap space.
"Other than John Wall or Anthony Davis, I don't think I would trade Embiid for any player taken in the last 5 drafts."
I'm pro-Embiid, but that's a really strong statement. Cousins, Klay, Lillard, Kawhi,or even one-way guys like Kyrie and Drummond? I guess you'll make the upside/franchise player argument, but that's some really good, really young, proven players.
Given the health risks I think I'd trade him for Cousins and Lillard, but not Klay or Kawhi ... and probably not the other two. Cousins and Lillard are really good, though. Lillard's probably a top 10 player today and Cousins might be one; if not he's pretty close. On the other hand, I wouldn't trade Embiid for Wall.
you need to watch John Wall play a little more, especially this season. I think he has made a legit point guard jump in decision making. He's scary good and on the uptick.
So I hear, but he's still the same inefficient scorer he's always been. Or at least, he's significantly less efficient than pretty much every elite point guard you can think of.
2 for 20. Genuine 'rock' star. Put your hands together and give it up for Michael. Carter. Williams. Whose bricks are made of high-grade foam and whose turnovers are the fault of teammates and referees. New list inside locker is of first names of league arena rims... "Nope", "Try Again", "Ain't Happenin'", "Ouch!", "Ease up, bro", "Dang, Clang!", "Only In Horseshoes", "Tilt", et al.
#1: outsized ego, undersized game. Exquisite personnel symbol for Harris-Hinkie-Brown TogetherBuilding.
I'm having trouble understanding the people who say that Embiid is this Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Olajuwon type of prospect who is head and shoulders above everyone in recent memory, and at the same time say that they're optimistic about his ability to stay healthy. How do they explain Wiggins at 1 & Parker at 2 then?
I mean if Embiid's injury concerns really are blown out of proportion, then why did the first 2 teams pass on this super stud? and what exactly are the arguments for dismissing all of his medical red flags? "Hinkie knows what he's doing" ?
When did Philadelphia sports fans become "glass half full" people anyway? I guess Hinkie must have singlehandedly turned the city's culture around.
Well to any level headed person Joel Embiid as a pick was always a gamble. High risk, high reward. Cleveland and Milwaukee did not wish to take that risk and that's fine. Philadelphia happens to be in the perfect position to take a risk like that. After Elton Brand and Andrew Bynum, I'm very pleased with the Embiid pick.
Philly fans are a curious case. I think we have simply lowered our expectations (see 2013/14 season) and keep forwarding our hopes into the future:
"It'll be allright once the rookie of the year comes back."
"It'll be all right when Nerlens Noel finally steps on the court"
"It'll be all right once Saric comes over"
"It'll be all right once Joel Embiid steps on the floor"
"It'll be all right once we get a top 2 pick in this year's draft"
It really only takes one bullet to hit before you look like a genius. New Orleans was a waste of a franchise. Hello Anthony Davis. All of a sudden the Tyreke Evans, Jrue Holiday and Eric Gordon deals dont look so bad. They are now hypothetically one piece away from contending and AD hasn't even hit his prime. Cap is going up, future suddenly looks rosy.
in addition think about this.
Embiid was in a tier by himself for most draft experts. Wiggins and Parker were below him. It took 2 separate injuries to knock him out of that top spot. An injured back and a navicular bone. All key banes of the big man.
In comparison, Noel's ACL tear dropped him 5 spots and maybe even further if we hadn't picked him there.
Now the timing of the injuries is different but even after a couple of injuries that would scare teams off any prospect, there was still uncertainty as to whether the Cavs would take him at #1.
That's how good Embiid, as a prospect, is.
"Philadelphia happens to be in the perfect position to take a risk like that."
Why do you say that? I'd actually say it's the opposite - the goal was to maximize "certainty" in a way. The 2014 draft was forecast as something special or whatever, that's why the Sixers threw away that particular season - to cash in on one of these 3 or 4 franchise centerpieces that were supposed to've been available. If they wanted to take a swing at the fences, they could have done that in any other draft by picking dudes like LaVine in the late lottery.
Anyway, ultimately, I think everyone at the top of the 14 class will prove to have been a bit overhyped, but the "safe" picks (in my opinion) were Parker, Wiggins, and Smart. And the Sixers would have been better off with a "safer" prospect like Wiggins or Parker.
Does my post make sense? My brain is sleep deprived and I don't think I really said what I wanted to.
The main thing is this:
"even after a couple of injuries that would scare teams off any prospect, there was still uncertainty as to whether the Cavs would take him at #1. That's how good Embiid, as a prospect, is."
That's basically my point. If that's how good of a prospect Embiid is, then the fact that the Cavs and Bucks passed on him signifies that his injuries & bone density scans are much more troubling than the "it's all good, no big deal" narrative. Feels like a lot of Sixer fans seem to think that Embiid was still the best pick of the draft, even with the injury concerns, and I don't agree with that. A 20 year old who has played 4 years of organized bball and was injury-plagued in 2 of them isn't going to suddenly get more durable when the workload increases to 82 games and everyone around is now way faster and stronger.
The reason why Cleveland and Milwaukee passed on Embiid is much simpler IMO. The management of both teams was in a very difficult position. They were (and to a degree still are) on the verge of being fired. It's very hard to justify spending a top 2 pick in a hyped draft class on a player that brings any kind of serious risk.
There is absolutely risk involving Embiid. His injury situation is unclear and i think noone really knows what the future holds for him. But i don't think the "bone density" or whatever triggered them to pass on him. Just being injured with a theoretically dangerous injury was enough to sway a management team in a difficult situation to opt for a much safer choice. Now that doesn't mean that Embiid is going to be fine or that all of the talk about his "bone density" is false. It just means that the reason why they passed on him isn't that "deep". I just think there's no way they would've drafted any kind of risk in their situation (Exum probably was never an option for them either for similar reasons).
"I'm having trouble understanding the people who say that Embiid is this Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Olajuwon type of prospect who is head and shoulders above everyone in recent memory.."
I don't think it should be difficult to understand at all since it was all played out before our eyes and well reported in the media last year. As far as him as a prospect goes, all you had to do was watch him and that question should be answered. And as to why CLE and MIL took other players, that info is no secret either. CLE got burned on Bennet and knew they had a shot at LeBron so needed someone who could 1)actually play this season and/or 2) wasn't injured so they could deal him. And MIL wanted a (close-to) home town kid and he wanted them as well (which is rare for MIL). And he was healthy. They were both excellent prospects so it's no like they Sixers pulled one over on anyone. But among scouts, Embiid was definitely the consensus No. 1 pick while healthy, and still No.1 for many after the injuries.
The medical stuff is what I would feel most confident about since Hinkie at least has prior knowledge of the injury, healing time, best doctors etc...from going through all of this with Yao. They had all the medical documentation for Embiid (I don't think MIL was ever given that info) and felt the risk/reward of drafting this kid at #3 was worth it. It all comes down to risk/reward. I think at #3 he was easily worth the risk.
I wasn't disputing Embiid's hype or ranking. I was just saying that calling him a generational player on par with Duncan or Olajuwon while also saying that his medical issues aren't very pertinent beyond the 14-15 season can't be reconciled with him slipping past #1.
If both of those things were true (generational prospect + checks out medically), then it wouldn't make sense for either Cleveland or Milwakee to pass on him. His trade value to Minny would have been higher than Wiggins', even if he missed his rookie season.
And something trivial like "Parker is from Chicago" wouldn't make a difference either, especially to Milwaukee.
For sure, no question they made the right pick at #3. I was just a lil upset that they ended up at 3 to begin with. It sort of felt like they were "stuck" with Embiid.
Agreed. I wasn't happy at all about #3 when it happened. But now I could not be happier. Listen I don't get into advanced stats like some on this site (I think you do a bit judging by past comments). Make no mistake, I see the value in those stats, but the process of going through them is too tedious for my level of interest - at least right now. So just watching Wiggins play, advanced metrics aside, I have not been overly impressed. And I am rooting for him because I want him to succeed. Defensively he is going to be exceptional. And maybe his offense and "alpha-dog" mentality is progressing right where he should be...who knows as time will tell. But so far...he's been just OK IMO. Parker is already out for the year, and he was just "OK" as well while he was on the floor. We'll see where Embiid is health-wise and just as important, diet-wise. Then give me Towns next June.
I mean, you don't have to get into advanced stats to say to yourself, "huh, a guy billed as the most athletic wing prospect since LeBron is shooting 40% on 2-point shots." Or, "how about the fact that this phenomenal freak athlete only attempts a dunk on 1 out of every 17 shots, as compared to Jabari's 1 out of 6 or K.J.'s 1 out of 8? Whether because of a lack of aggression or ball-handling or both, something seems to be preventing Wiggins from putting his athleticism to much use." Or, "what does it say about Wiggins's feel for the game that he's averaging 1.4 assists a game to 2 turnovers?" Or, "hmm, a guy billed as a Melo-like scorer has made 4 threes all year and gets to the line half as often as Melo did his rookie season; also, this supposedly amazing, ready-now scorer is scoring 12 points a game on a team with fairly few scorers, where he's only asked to shoot." All of that is basically box score stats. I don't look too heavily into a lot of the all-in-one advanced stats, like win shares or adjusted plus-minus or VORP or PER or offensive/defensive rating, because I don't quite get how they're made and I'm not too sure which ones are best. And I don't look much at on/off data, because it seems so context-specific.
I bet if Embiid was playing, he would look absolutely lost out there, just like everyone else on this ad hoc team.
I'd bet you a gazillion dollars that Wiggins and Parker will have better individual careers than Embiid and Exum when all's said and done, I would even let you choose the criteria for what "better career" is. But I don't wanna cheer against Embiid, cause
Mostly just a strong hunch, but I simply don't see Embiid staying healthy enough, long enough and I see Exum quietly disappearing into the sea of non-factor interchangeable NBA role players. Larry Hughes with an accent.
Should say: ...but I don't wanna cheer against Embiid because I love the Sixers :)
Brian, when I type the greater-than/less-than signs on here, they don't work and for some reason using them also deletes the entire paragraph that they're in. Kind of a big deal cause you can't make sideways heart symbols without them. Idk if you can fix that somehow
Boy...I disagree on the Larry Hughes/Exum comp. Exum has a defined position. He is a true PG. Hughes was a scorer whom the Sixers tried to make a PG. The only things they have in common are athleticism, suspect shooting ability, and similar size (throw in the possibility of corn rows for Exum next year). But I believe Exum will be a very good PG. And I think his shot will improve as well. Although he looked awful the against the Sixers.
I should add that I don't think you were comparing them player for player. You were making the comparison that Exum will quietly wash out of the NBA over time. I think his skills as a PG will make him special in the long term.
I mainly said that just to antagonize Tray. He was using BballReference to cherry pick anti-Wiggins stats again.
Exum has a decent chance to top Larry Hughes I suppose...but becoming a modern day Penny Hardaway is about as likely as MCW being the next Jason Kidd. He was an international standout but what does he have in his game to really hang his hat on in the NBA? I can't disagree with Orlando picking Gordon at 4 over Exum. They probably saw that a guy with a 50% chance to become Shawn Marion is more valuable than the foreign enigma who might have a 5% shot to be Penny. The other 95% = who knows because most of Exum's film was just a montage of him euro-stepping through some teenage JV squad in Australia.
I do hope I'm wrong about Embiid's health though. like Rusty and Stan were saying above, everything hinges on Embiid panning out.
First of all, I don't agree that everyone on the team looks lost, especially on defense. Second, it's not fair to compare a hypothetical Embiid season looking lost on this team to what other guys are doing on teams whose rosters are less of a mess. Wiggins has less excuse to look lost. Would a healthy Embiid totally transcend the situation? No, I can't imagine he would or that any other rookie would. And third, ok cool, you have a hunch that Embiid will have serious injury problems. I have no hunch because I'm not a doctor and don't have medical hunches. And our doctors either have a different hunch or something more than a hunch that he'll be alright, while two other teams' doctors seemed to be more concerned; then again maybe they're catering to risk-adverse fans or have risk-adverse owners. Hard to say, really. I think debating Embiid's health risks is really pointless because we don't know anything about the matter.
What I am willing to argue is that Wiggins projects more like Rudy Gay than LeBron or even Paul George, and that Parker isn't going to be too special. If you believe that, it becomes a lot easier to swallow Embiid's risks, however great they are. Exum's kind of a mystery to me and everyone else, which is a good reason to not draft him over the overwhelmingly most talented player in college basketball. That said, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from what he does this year. He's a 19 year-old guard coming out of a high school in a relatively bad basketball country. Kobe or Monta or Lou weren't doing much their rookie seasons either.
Wiggins doesn't really look "lost" to me for the most part. Esp. considering that he was handed the offensive keys to a young team absolutely wrecked by injuries in the Western Conf. He's showing plenty of flashes on both ends and is generally performing as well as could reasonably be expected on a team quarterbacked by Zach LaVine. He's not LeBron, you're right. but you should blame whoever it was that anointed him LeBron to begin with, not Wiggins for failing to meet some nonsensical standard.
No reason why he can't become a Paul George or something, given the same time frame... Or even a useful version of Rudy Gay; imagine a few tweaks that would make Rudy Gay more productive/less annoying with the ball and combine that with all NBA level perimeter defense that Wiggins is capable of. That'd be pretty good in my opinion. Iggy was routinely touted on this blog as a legit star cause he could D up so don't be such a homer.
This is you on Exum:
"That said, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from what he does this year. He's a 19 year-old guard coming out of a high school in a relatively bad basketball country. Kobe or Monta or Lou weren't doing much their rookie seasons either."
And here's you on Wiggins and Parker:
"What I am willing to argue is that Wiggins projects more like Rudy Gay...and that Parker isn't going to be too special."
How come the leash is shorter when it comes to those two?
The leash is shorter when it comes to Wiggins and Parker in part because they're a bit more experienced, but mostly because I thought these things before the draft. It's not like (in my mind) Wiggins was this awesome prospect in June, who is now only the next Rudy Gay because of his rookie numbers. Actually I expected a little less than he's shown. That said, here's a fun piece which notes that various advanced metrics have him pegged as a really awful player. Among other things, he's somehow last in the whole league in VORP, and last in several other metrics among players with real minutes.
As for the homer thing, I was never a huge Iguodala-touter; that would be the host of this blog, who also really likes Wiggins. So we're both consistent, if having similar views on Wiggins and Iguodala is a sign of consistency. That said, I don't know what makes people think Wiggins is in Iguodala's superlative class as a defender, or will ever be. God knows where defensive ratings come from, but Wiggins's is 114 to Iguodala's rookie mark of 102. His defensive box plus-minus is -1.7 to Iguodala's rookie mark of 2.6. His "real" plus-minus on defense, over on ESPN, which I take it is an adjusted plus-minus from real on-off data that accounts for differences in surrounding lineups, is -1.12. The raw numbers, that is, the numbers that don't adjust for poorer lineups when Wiggins (a starter) is on the bench, say that teams are half a point better when Wiggins is on the court than off. Opponents rebound better when he plays and shoot a hair better, though they do turn over the ball more. And as far as box score stats go, 1.2 steals per 36 minutes is kind of low. As far as I can tell, Wiggins falls in the category of players with great defensive potential but average fundamentals, like KJ, and quite unlike Iguodala. And comparing him to KJ is kind as KJ is making a much larger defensive impact.
We weren't comparing Wiggins to Iguodala or to Rudy. It's Wiggins vs. Parker vs. Embiid vs. Exum. I mentioned dre just to point out that Wiggins' defensive potential is important to remember too when thinking about his ceiling as a player.
That said, yeah I kind of already had a sense of those numbers you listed for him. At this stage it's easier to portray him as the next Jumaine Jones rather than Paul George. But that'd be silly and unfair since, again, he's a rookie on a bad team. I mean I'll make Exum look like he's on pace to be a poor man's Leandro Barbosa if you want.
Anyway, I was talking about using what seemed like a double standard of projecting & evaluating rookies. But if you're just saying you like Exum more than Wiggins then alright, that's cool with me
Exum's numbers aren't quite as bad, but that aside I did like Exum more, coming into the draft. As to the rest, I would be higher on Wiggins if I thought there was a really great chance that he'd reach his defensive potential. I don't think it's silly and unfair to look at Wiggins's numbers just because he's a rookie on a bad team; we can compare his numbers to that of other rookies on bad teams, or other 19-year-olds, which is what that piece does. It doesn't argue, "look, right now Wiggins's numbers are like that of a mature Jumaine Jones."
Yeah if we had the #1 pick, I probably would have wanted us to pick Wiggins in that situation.
Injury susceptibility is something that cannot really be quantified but prior injuries are as accurate a barometer for an athlete. It is possible to read positive medical reports on his foot and back and still be wary of Embiid if you were the Cavs or Bucks.
I'd take Exum over MCW every day of the week. Even though he looks a but overwhelmed, I don't remember many (if any) underclass point guards who perform well early on. Let alone high school kids.
I would have taken the players picked in order if we had any of the top 3 picks. If embid never was hurt, I would have taken him 1. Hinkie researched the injury in the past but he isn't a doctor. After watching what cousins is doing with his size and athleticism, I get insanely excited at even the remote possibility of embid on a court. He will suck for his first few years from foul trouble and learning the game, but that will be the apology in the future.
Reggie Jackson, Tobias Harris and then the likely matched Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler. I would love to pry Butler, but I would consider Harris on the right deal. I didn't realize Jackson struggled shooting as much as he does but I'd even consider him at $10mn if we believed he could shoot in the future.
I wonder if we would ever trade the Miami pick. Hinkie has made his preference of players vs picks clear, but it's an interesting chip. Would you trade that pick to the lakers in a 3 team deal where you got randle and additional assets for providing cap space? I don't expect la to do anything like this but it feels as though last years deadline was a but too quiet.
Things I hate about Randle: bball iq, passing, defense. Things I don't like: predominantly below-the-rim scorer, questionable jump shot, fit with this roster. Stuff I like: scoring instincts, gets to the line a ton, great rebounder.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, although I tend to view the jump shot as very fixable. He is a total wildcard so its fair....
For some odd reason, I just really want us to have a dominant frontcourt. Not that we have had dominant backcourts in my past, but I have grown up without a true monster underneath. The Shawn Bradley through current era has lacked a Moses Malone esque talent underneath. I don't even know that we had "the best" Moses, but that is what I want. It appears that we are getting some true frontcourt talent making its way back into the NBA with Cousins. Howard is probably in the last few yersa of his relative dominance. Maybe Drummond gets there. Perhaps that is why I want Embiid to be great and to draft a Towns or Okafor. Its why I would welcome a Randle or a bruiser. I would love to run a Memphis type style of play.
Has anyone noticed Noel's TS%? I might be a bit out of the loop, but is 45.5% acceptable for an NBA big man today? 15.5% usage rate, so he isn't trying to do too much...20.9% turnover rate, which is kinda high. In what world will this team ever be able to hide that for 35 minutes/night and remain competitive?
I think the hope is that he gets better, or that you don't hide it for 35 minutes a night because you draft Towns and he becomes a 6th man. Now, can he actually get so much better that he isn't still pretty bad? I have my doubts.
The hope is that the #6 pick might turn into a sixth man, and we'll us another top five pick to get the starter, after using two other top ten picks on guys that play his position.
Just a thought, but has the NBA changed to the point where getting a good big man isn't the best route to building a contender? Duncan is the only one that's won a title in the past eight years is memory serves. Dirk is really a three playing the four, so I don't count him. Seems like wing scorers are more important than bigs these days.
Noel is shooting 59.1% at the rim. I think Sam Dalembert is about three rungs above Noel's offensive ceiling. Should probably see if you can find a taker for him sooner rather than later, considering he's going to be due for an extension after his third season.
MCW said all the right things to the media sounding confident that he'll come back strong after his 2-20 performance. Then the game happened and he was scared to play. Not a great step in the leadership department for MCW. What a game.
Not to be a pain, but any chance we can get a new thread? We are through the first third of the season. If it's easier for a fan post just let us know.
Man the Warriors are SO good. The Sixers had an average game IMO and still got blown out by 40. Of course a Sixers average game is still a terrible performance overall, but they definitely played much better compared to the Dallas and Toronto blowouts from earlier in the season.
Debating much of this is mostly pointless, as it's been beaten to death on this site more than enough. The fact is, this is Hinkie's plan, not Harris. The reason Hinkie was not hired in the 2012 offseason is because Harris was not willing to go down this path, because he had been convinced by Doug Collins that a legitimate championship foundation was in place, all Doug Collins needed to do was get rid of his problem child, Andre Iguodala.
So instead, Harris spent a buttload of money on a flawed core. Because that's what his GM told him to do. If all Harris wanted to do was to trim costs and make (relatively small) amounts of money, he would have done this in 2012. but he didn't. This style came becuase this is how Hinkie wanted to build his foundation. It was a prerequisite to him being accepting the position. Not the other way around.
But the suggestion that they're running their own D-League team to make money is laughable. D-League teams add neither money to the bottom line now or an increase in valuation of the franchise. That's why half the teams don't run their own affiliate, and that's why the NBA can't force teams to add in that extra cost, even though it would allow the league to have a legitimate minor league system.
Bleh, the league will never have a legit minor league system because developing players isn't an essential element of the game. Except in extremely rare cases, guys are either good enough to play in the league and help a team win, or they aren't and it's apparent from the time they step on the floor for the first time. My point is the 86ers are an asset. If you're making the case that the D-League team is a great idea because they can use it to develop some overlooked talent, well that's what they're doing w/ their regular roster. How far removed from being a legit NBA player do you have to be to fall short of the Sixers active roster of rejects and wannabes?
And to say that first season is proof of Harris' good intentions for the team in the long-term is laughable. This whole thing is right out of the PE handbook. Buy an undervalued asset, give current management enough rope to hang themselves, but not enough to interfere w/ your 5-7 year plan to squeeze every dollar out of it, then bring in your own guys to execute your plan when current management does what they did to get themselves in their current position, fail. Then it's easy to sell the deconstruction and profiteering to follow.
Saying Hinkie has led Harris down this path with all his great ideas for tearing it down to the studs is pretty naive, imo. There were a number of stories right around the time Hinkie was hired saying Harris can finally do what he wants with the team now that Collins/Thorn are out of the way. Even if there weren't stories, the direction of the franchise has been pretty clear, and the motivation behind the moves (or lack thereof). If they were truly trying to build a winner, they'd be doing something to move the team in a positive direction. They'd be signing young guys with at least a glimmer of a shot at being a legit NBA player. Heck they might even be trying to get young guys who were drafted and have contributed in the league. It wouldn't be all cost cutting and collecting marginal draft picks. They aren't developing anything right now, and they know it. They're trotting out a roster with maybe 3 rotational players on it, and maybe zero starters.
Meanwhile, they're making money, both actively and passively, hand over fist. If you want to think that's just a coincidence, fine. To me, it looks a lot like a trend.
Actively hand over fist? $7.5m is hand over fist?
They could make $7.5m profit by spending more as well. This isn't the only, or best, way to make money. And the long term valuation of the franchise is going up regardless, due to tv deals and cba changes.
Regardless, this is pointless. Only 2 people really know why they're doing what they're doing, and neither of them are us. You've convinced you've read the tea leaves correctly, I'm confident in my take, so this is all 100% pointless.
Just two things.
First, explaining the year with Collins and Thorn as giving management enough room to hang themselves seems dubious. Why not fire them right away? What if Bynum had worked out? Management thought he would or they wouldn't have made the deal. I guess you could explain the deal as a super-cynical salary dump, but had Bynum played well wouldn't Harris have been under enormous pressure to resign him?
Second, I assume that teams that rebuild in good faith make money too. So I don't see what you can infer from the fact that we're making a smallish profit. What is suspect is the use of D-Leaguers to fill the roster. What does that tell us? The below-floor savings aren't really savings at all, at least until, or if, we trade for Amare. I guess I just don't believe Hinkie's working here and spending all this energy hoarding picks and flipping picks and scouting players and, by most people's lights, doing a very good job of drafting the right ones, just so Harris can ultimately let them walk as Sterling would have.
It's bad PR to just come in and clean house. These guys are wary of their well-earned reputations, so they typically will give management limited rope, especially when they come in during a lockout and then the team gets into the second round of the playoffs, and the miniature owner gets to see himself on national TV at the home games and hobnob with Will Smith. Sterling put money in the team when the league handed him a contender for vanity's sake as well.
I do agree w/ Derek that this is a pointless argument, I just kind of feel like I'm the only one saying anything about it and I don't have anything to say about this joke of a roster, so why not.
I've actually writen a number of articles about how the Sixers are making money. I just haven't gone the "Joshua Harris is the devil" route because that would be relaitvely irresponsible as a credentialed journalist.
http://nba.derekbodner.com/2014/08/28/how-the-sixers-did-and-didnt-turn-a-profit-last-year/
http://nba.derekbodner.com/2014/08/30/arriving-at-minimum-salary/
http://www.libertyballers.com/the-liberty-beat/2014/11/13/7212943/sixers-mailbag-volume-3-bad-habits-rookie-expectations-finances-and/in/6978946#jrich
Well, I don't have the same restrictions, so I'm allowed to connect the dots. He's a businessman, not a basketball fan. Which is fine. It's what he should be. He's also taking advantage of being in one of the few situations in the world where he can both fail historically and still make money (and set himself up to make even more money). Donald Sterling did it for three decades, it's nothing new. Just worth pointing out exactly what he means when he says a 19-win season was excellent.
Do you think Sam Hinkie would have taken the job if he had any belief, even small, that Josh Harris wouldn't commit the financial resources necessary to field a competitive team when he was able to get his core in place through the draft? Hinkie was extremely well thought of in NBA circles when he was at Houston, there's no doubt that he would have gotten another opportunity relatively soon if he turned down the Sixers. Why would he take this job if he thought ownership would be these money sucking devil beasts?
Same thing with Brett Brown. San Antonio assistants are in high demand. There's no reason to believe that he wouldn't get another opportunity. If he had an inkling of thought that ownership would never give him the tools he needs because a guy worth $2.5b wants to turn a $7m profit, why would he come here?
You have to believe both of these men heavily vetted Harris.
Literally the first press conference Sam Hinkie gave here, he said that superstars are necessary to win, and the draft is a big part of obtaining those superstars. He also comes from an organization that has avoided paying role players in the hopes of adding a 3rd star through free agency. Is it, perhaps, possible that he believes in getting his core through the draft, while maintaining enough salary cap flexibility to complement that core with a 3rd star in free agency?
Is it perhaps possible that the above is more likely than some big conspiracy driven character assassination about a billionaire who is going to make 100x more when he goes to sell this team than these little $7m profits?
Is it perhaps that, maybe rather than call everybody naive who disagrees with you, that there's a possibility your bitterness and disdain are simply misplaced?
I'm not even saying that it's impossible Joshua Harris hasn't told Hinkie something like "Hey, you want to lose to build through the draft? Great. But in order to go through a 2 year period where nobody is in the building, you have to use a roster spot so we can keep getting insurance payments on Jason Richardson's contract." I think something like that is definitely possible. But to say they're bad solely so Harris can bleed every penny he can out of ownership of the franchise? Can't agree with you there.
It's not that you're the only one who can connect the dots. Some people simply don't agree with you.
This is all 100% possible. And it's the same argument every company that gets taken over by a PE firm uses until the pension fund is looted and the machinery is sold for scrap metal. That billionaires do things out of the good of their hearts, or the money doesn't really matter to them, they just want to see a solid company get back on its feet.
As far as Hinkie and Brown's vetting, I can't really speak to that. Hinkie walked into a wet dream of a situation where he had cart blanche to conduct his grand tanking experiment with absolutely zero expectation of winning (or desire to win, depending on how you're reading the tea leaves). Maybe Brown saw a huge guaranteed contract dangled in front of his eyes and thought it was time to stop carrying chalk for Pop...or he realized there are only 30 of these jobs and you don't say no to one, no matter how much it looks like career suicide. Or maybe Harris just did a good job selling them. Who knows.
To be clear, I'm not even saying Harris won't open the checkbook some time down the road, in fact if/when his spreadsheet says he can make more money winning games, I'm sure that's exactly what he'll do. Unfortunately, that conversation is beyond hypothetical right now because this team is a couple lottery miracles and about 8 minor pieces away and hasn't moved an inch closer under Hinkie, unless you believe in fairy tales or you're the most wildly optimistic person in the world.
The bottom line here isn't $7M in guesstimated profits, the bottom line is probably $200M+ in the black in under 5 years, and keeping the cashflow high by keeping the overhead low so when someone comes calling with $1B in his pocket, Harris can pull the trigger immediately.
It's all supposition and speculation on everyone's part. When I say the opposing POV is naive, it's probably because my faith in humanity isn't strong enough to believe Harris has a heart of gold with a couple years of hard evidence to the contrary.
It's not about a "heart of gold". Virtually every NBA owner is a filthy rich business man. But not all of them look at it solely as a way to milk profits until they can't milk any more profits. Some of them enjoy sports. Some of them enjoy the competition. And some of them enjoy the benefits of owning an NBA team and eventually cashing in on a huge windfall when they get sick of it and decide to move on. For whatever reason, probably because of how he made his fortune, not only does Harris not get the benefit of the doubt that he might be like other good NBA owners, but he gets the opposite: he's assumed scumbaggy despite significant evidence that this is being done primarily at Hinkie's urging.
Whatever gets you through this period, I guess.
"he's assumed scumbaggy despite significant evidence that this is being done primarily at Hinkie's urging."
Hinkie didn't have anything to do w/ the practice facility. I highly doubt Hinkie had to twist Harris' arm to make the Granger deal, which did absolutely nothing to further the team, but put a bunch of cash in Harris' pockets. I'm not sure why you see these things as being mutually exclusive. Hinkie's plan vs. Harris' plan. Harris hired him, he's obviously green-lit this path in terms of bottoming out and staying bottomed out. Why is Harris absolved in your mind if this is what Hinkie wants to do?
You don't think Hinkie, and Brett Brown, desperate want a high quality practice facility? PCOM is a shit show. It's embarassing. I like how we've made having a state of the art practice facility a bad thing just because it might make the valuation fo the franchise bad.
I've mentioned numerous times that I think acquiring Granger to get over the floor threshold was partly to do with saving money, and I've said that I expect them to do something similar this season if they get to the deadline and are under the floor. Where I disagree is that I don't think they're not spending money now to save money. I think they're keeping money now to remain as flexible as possible to make deals like the rumored Karasev one. Have they gone over the top? Perhaps. But I do believe that's the reasoning. And I do believe that if a trade comes up that will use $15m of cap space but acquire an asset Hinkie values, that Harris will do it.
I think that's the difference between ones who believe this is Harris driven and those who believe this is Hinkie driven.
I think the perfect example of this is the rumored Jeremy Lin trade. Lin has the exact kind of contract that Harris wouldn't want to acquire if he were in 'make small amounts of money each year' mode. He'd only get the Sixers $8.3m closer to the salary cap floor, but he's going to cost a team $14.9 million this season.
But the Sixers were in talks to acquire him, and I have good sources in both organizations. The talks were real. It ended up falling through because the Lakers were willing to take on his contract for less, for what ends up being an extremely late first round pick. But if the matter of contention came because of the quality of a draft pick, something that's very unlikely to impact Harris's bottom line, it came down to a basketball/flexibility decision, not a financial decision. Hinkie just needed more compensation to give up that flexibility.
If they had made the trade, maybe you'd have a point. And I think I said at he the time that it would've shown a willingness to pay some money to improve the team in some way. If they had made it.
And building the practice facility isn't the issue. Building it in Camden because of the tax credits is.
PE firms do actually get some companies back on their feet, right?
They find a way to make money w/ every company they buy, could be building up, could be tearing down, could be ringing every last cent out of it and then selling. Depends on the situation. What they typical will not do is throw good money after bad for sentimental reasons. Ergo, why would I pay money to win when I can make more money losing. That's something that would fall under sentimentality.
Have I missed the plethora of businessmen who were successful enough to own NBA teams who weren't trying to find a way to make money with every company they're associated with?
Have I missed the plethora of businessmen who have owned an NBA team and green-lit putting a product on the floor that in no way resembles and NBA team? Harris' actions are in line with Sterling's, that was the point of this post. You can argue that you think he's got something bigger/better planned for down the road if you want to, but you can't argue that his franchise is being run like he's happy to lose as long as he's making money. That is not a trait I'd associate with most owners.
So a naive question - while teams like this one are probably more profitable than .500 teams that spend a lot more on salary, don't the big winners make a lot more on their tv deals, ticket sales, merchandise, revenues from playoff appearances, etc.? Likewise, doesn't building a contender increase a franchise's resale value?
I'd assume Harris has a model that uses projected earnings, payroll, wins and spits out a number. That number is black right now, it probably goes to red pretty quickly if he starts adding salary and I have no idea if/when it goes back to black. In terms of sale value, right now he could sell to an owner who actually wants to win as it being a clean slate w/ a ton of cap room. He could sell it to another vulture as a team that's in the black and completely lean.
If the team was to start adding salaried players, it would be harder to make a sale to the second type of owner. If they added a salaried player who didn't pan out, it would make them less attractive to everyone. If they just stick with draft picks and cast offs, there's very little risk the value of the franchise's value decreasing, to either type of potential buyer.
Essentially, he's building value in the team. Taking cash out of the team, putting it in his pockets and he can afford to do this forever because he's making money doing it. He can afford to keep doing it until they get the next Michael Jordan in the draft. Until that happens, keep punting, keep losing, keep raking in the dough.
"He can afford to keep doing it until they get the next Michael Jordan in the draft. Until that happens, keep punting, keep losing, keep raking in the dough."
So you're saying that if we draft the next Jordan we will re-sign him? What if Embiid's really good? If you're acknowledging that we'll re-sign a star if we draft one, then I don't see the comparison to Sterling, who didn't re-sign the players he drafted until the very end of his tenure. Really what you're saying is what you've always been saying, that you'd prefer we not go the tanking/rebuilding route.
Just to tack on, the whole point of this exercise is to draft really good players, and to use the advantages the CBA gives a team to re-sign its own players to lock up the really good players we draft. Now, if you think this is all a cost-saving charade and we really have no intention of spending a lot of money to re-sign top talent we draft, I don't agree but that's something worth talking about. But if you think that we will re-sign excellent players we draft, but that this strategy is partially driven by how profitable it makes the team up until the point when we have to pay our drafted players a lot of money, then I don't see why that even matters. So long as they'll actually make the key re-signings, whether they're partially driven by profits in choosing to tank isn't a big deal; I could still think their strategy, whatever its motives, is the best way to go. If your real point is that you don't like the tank-and-rebuild strategy even when pursued seriously and would prefer that we accumulate talent through free agency and not trade away key pieces on a mediocre but competitive team, let's talk about that instead of their motives. Of course, there are all sorts of variations on your position - you may think that we'll re-sign our best draft picks, but won't make the secondary moves needed to win. That would be worth discussing, but I don't know how you could reasonably predict that. Most of what you're saying just assumes that because our owners made their money in a field that's particularly unsentimental about making money (as most successful businesses are), they will always act to maximize their profits in this venture. Which doesn't follow and doesn't mean anything unless you can show that contention wouldn't increase their profits.
It's all supposition, but if I had to guess, I'd say Harris would probably operate like the Thunder. He'll be on the wrong side of a Harden deal to avoid paying the tax. In the mean time, I don't think any avenue toward building a contender will be followed that requires significant payroll increase. As far as I know, Sterling's sin wasn't failing to re-sign his players. Who did he let walk that wound up being good elsewhere? His sin was mostly having terrible GM's who blew draft picks.
I know everyone thinks Saric is a stud and we're lucky that Embiid fell to us, but if you aren't drinking that Kool-aid, and you just look at the facts, Harris and Hinkie are actively trying to make this as slow of a process as possible. They're making picks with the intention of remaining horribly bad for as long as possible. Now if you're an optimist, you could say Hinkie wants to be at the top of the lottery until he gets the next LeBron and he doesn't care about anything else. If you're a pessimist, well, then it looks like Harris is saying "I'm making money by losing, why would I spend money to chase wins?"
I know that statement sounds outrageous, but it's something Sterling did for decades, hence the post.
" I'd say Harris would probably operate like the Thunder. He'll be on the wrong side of a Harden deal to avoid paying the tax" - but didn't we see the exact opposite of this during the Brand/Bynum year?
Not really, no. They actually might've wound up making money on that deal. Part of Brand's salary was picked up by Dallas, and I assume insurance paid all or most of Bynum's contract. A true conspiracy theorist might even say the Bynum deal was approved as a means to speed Collins/Thorn's departures and save some money. I'm not sure I'd go that far. Someone else might know more about insurance on Bynum's contract, I'm just guessing. Read further up in the conversation for further explanation, search for "enough rope to hang themselves."
Also, even if they did spend on Bynum, it was a one-year expense. It wasn't a long-term max deal for a young budding star. Not a lot of risk in any one-year contract.
The Sixers payroll that year was around $84 million. $3 million of Brand's salary was paid by Dallas. And I assume they had a large chunk of Bynum's $17 mil salary paid by insurance.
I actually do think that Collins was set up to fail that year. 24 year old franchise centers don't get acquired for a few lottery protected 1st round picks. Every other team in the league stayed away from him and the only offer he received in free agency was mostly non-guaranteed.
But I have to agree with most of what Harris did. Iguudala was going to walk in free agency,I have no doubts about that. Evan Turner was a bust,and Collins was a little outdated. If the previous ownership was running that team, our current outlook would be the Charlotte Bobcats.
I think you can agree with me that the rebuild was the best option.
I liked the Jrue Holiday trade. I liked the Joel Embiid selection, and I even thought they got decent value for Thad Young. And I love that they put an emphasis on developing players.
I don't mind that the Sixers are trying to save money during this rebuild. My only beef with what Harris and Hinkie did is how they built the current roster. 90% of this roster doesn't belong in the NBA. It's pretty much a laughing stock and I don't think either one of them care.
Well again, this limited rope wouldn't have been so limited had Bynum been healthy. I can't really imagine a scenario in which, had Bynum been his old self, we wouldn't have handed him a huge offer. Maybe you can. I also don't think it would have been such bad PR to dump Collins and Thorn right at the outset. Firing them was a pretty popular move.
Two years later it was a popular move, after the Bynum thing blew up and they didn't make the playoffs. And if the Bynum thing worked out and the team ascended, I'm sure they would've put money into the team. They gave Collins/Thorn a fair shot, sort of, to complete their plan. So long as they didn't commit to anything more than 2 years. That was the length of the rope, had they hit paydirt, we'd be having a different conversation because they'd be a top-tier team. Harris wouldn't have been able to hit his self-destruct button and brought in his big brain to execute on the plan.
And just a for the record, stop complaining about me complaining type thing. I'd love it if there was something basketball-related to talk about. I'd absolutely love it if they were putting a worthwhile product on the floor, or there was some hope that what we're watching today could somehow congeal into an actual NBA team, but that's just not the case. 80% of their roster belongs in the D-League, or Europe. The guys who maybe have a chance of being in the league 5 years from now are surrounded by hopeless lost causes, and have no chance to develop and learn how to be solid contributors in the league when they're getting blown out every night and they're surrounded by guys who are outclassed in every way every single night. Anyone worth anything on this roster is going to be looking for the quickest path out of town and the second they build some kind of trade value, they'll be moved to start the process all over w/ some other guy who's too young and not quite good enough to accidentally contribute wins.
It's a sham, the longer the process goes, the longer Harris can stuff his pockets. Zero risk, pure profit, every day until he hits the eject button and really collects. Just like Sterling.
Donald Sterling had the luxury of being able to put out a terrible product but still bring in decent attendance numbers. Harris doesn't have that same luxury and isn't really making bank on this plan. He probably could have made more profit had he kept Holiday then used up the salary cap to sign veteran free agents.
I think his real intention is to flip this team for a huge profit. Which I don't think is a bad thing. Selling a team with potential superstars to an owner with deep pockets is a good thing for the fans. What I don't want to happen is the Sixers being a team that doesn't pay the luxury tax or is willing to let talented players walk because they don't want to pay them market value.
Inadvertent self-indictment: "It's a recipe that's hard to figure out." - Brett Brown
Player indictment: "He just tells me to defend." - K.J. McDaniels
Fan sympathy: No fighting coach should be required to enter battle without weaponry.
Fan consolation: At least there's the humongous salary for coaching services rendered that was agreed upon.
By Godfrey, Sixuzz ahh loaded wid anklebiteahs.
Brian is sounding an awful lot like Martin Sheen's character in Wall Street. The Sixers are now Blue Star Airlines???
So I guess that makes Harris Gordon Gekko?
First win tonight. I'm feeling it.
wroten is driving me insane
great play drawn up there
KG gets away with murder on a moving screen that doesnt get called then a bs call on noel fighting for the rebound
mcw not noel
Omgggg Wroten with his turnovers
the argument for starting him and mcw is that wroten would have the ball less
nice play drawn up but KJ misses an open 3
also wroten is hurt and limping around
nice effort
dallas on saturday
That loose ball foul was complete bull shit. Reminded me why I hated KG so much.
earlier in the play he basically hugged mcw setting a screen
MCW with another gem tonight. I'd almost rather him shoot 3's over a lay-ups because he appears to have the same chances of making each.
The team fought hard tonight. Unfortunately they are getting no PG play at all right now. 7/27 and 11 TO's for the dynamic duo. And much like Houston, horrible decision making in clutch time. Too bad. I thought they had a win tonight the way they battled.
Horrible call on the loose ball foul. What a joke.
MCW is really tough to watch this season. He shows bad defensive body language. He still can't finish at the rim. He clearly never learned how to throw a lob (the mcw to Noel should be a lot more common but clearly isn't working). His physical tools are there and he can get about 75% of the way to being really good (between using height, speed, etc.) and then he totally fucks up that last 25% of the process. It doesn't seem like a basketball iq thing (though that's not impressive either), he just has been lackluster.
KJ continues to impress me. He has his limitations with his handle and defensive lapses, but he can be very very effective on both sides of the floor. The shot looked good until those last 2 (whcih arguably mattered). If e shoots 3's at a high 30s clip.... Very positive.
Wroten is a thorn in my side but less so than mcw. He just seems like the type of guy who hangs around for 5 years and makes small BahnCard to his game to remain effective. Idk why I've been constructive in him.
You can see signs of what the interior defense could be like with Noel and KJ.
I think the lob thing is all communication. It should be there
MCW's play has been poor thus far, but let's not forget that he's played less than 10 games after missing nearly 6 months following shoulder surgery.
Again, not playing well right now but he deserves a bit of time to work into form.
Time is something this team certainly has...
great effort tonight.
Love the 2 oops MCW threw to Nerlens off the PnR. Glimpse of a hopeful future if each can get better (MCW finishing or shooting inside, Noel timing the screen and slip right).
If BB can take anything from this game, it is that his team will only have a chance when Noel and KJ are on the floor together. Great defense tonight.
MCW's man to man defense blows; he switches way too often and keeps reaching in. Getting fouled out tonight was a direct result of silly touch fouls picked up earlier.
I hope BB continues to reign him in; he gets carried away on offense way too much.
Watching Bucks v T-Wolves....great game. I need to come clean on Lavine. I don't know what position he plays in the NBA, but he definitely belongs. I always thought he looked lost out there on the court, but watching him tonight, no...he's a player. Wiggins still doesn't look like a #1 pick, but the potential is easy to see and he is progressing. Parker was really pressing. And when you consider the athletes on the court this game, it makes sense that he looked a step slow and struggled to find his place. Greek freak is is still the most impressive player on the floor.
On another note: True Hoop interview with Brett Brown was interesting when he discussed the draft. He was very candid and its worth a listen. I really want Brown to succeed here and I hope he turns out to be the right guy.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/71303/how-to-talk-to-a-winless-coach
Happy Thanksgiving everybody. Let's go Birds!
wroten has a knee sprain and is at least a week
Jerami Grant will be active for i think the first time this year but i doubt he plays
that should say wroten is out a week
Sampson played so I wouldn't rule anything out. Grant is basically an unskilled 4 in a wing's body is that right?
From what I remember reading, he's like a homeless man's version of Thad except he can't do anything at all at this point.
yea pretty much
Bummer. There goes 32.6 mpg of picturesque basketball. I thought he had a head sprain. No worry, Snowflake will pick up the turnover slack until Tony the Tiger returns.
Tomorrow night; Dallas: another cotton-pickin' loss. 0-16: new ground. How do you like that.
Halftime entertainment: Sam "The Dangling Detonator" Hinkie meets Josh "48 Minutes Of Helicopters" Harris in what is expected to be ferocious intramural tabletop tennis. The "Adam Aron Invitational Championship" match should be a humdinger.
We could reach a point where Camden turns down the Sixers because they worry that the Sixers will tarnish their reputation.
Funny. Thanks for the conceptual B-12, Doc.
By the way, is there such a medical phenomenon as a full body cramp? Sounds excuciatingly painful and technically restrictive, especially on the dance floor. Does it typically require 2 months of recovery time? Lastly, do you expect Grant to boogie tonight with any degree of success? His father & uncle were OK, so long as they stuck to their roles. But they weren't coached by Jim Boeheim, 'ice to the eskimo' recruiter and average game time maestro.
here is a euro step from the 3pt line which i didnt think was possible
https://vine.co/v/OnJUmvTd5th
Drummond 12/19fg, 7orb, 26pts/20reb, in a loss to the Bucks.
Would you trade Embiid for Drummond right now? I think I would.
Ok I take that back, just checked his basketball reference page and he's not as productive as I thought for some reason.
He has had a really terrible year for some reason. I actually expected him to take a big step up with SVG in town. Maybe that was the wrong expectation on my part.
My hope was that Embid would compete in the era of new big men with Boogie Cousins, Drummond, and Davis. With Davis being the less traditional back to the basket guy. Obviously it has only been a short portion of the season but it seems like Drummond is a tier below those other two. I would basically hope Embid is a tier above the Hibberts and Drummonds (as of now) of the world.
Yeah I was surprised. I'm sure a lot of people in Detroit were hoping SVG would do for him what he did for Dwight. Last season he had 13.5/13.2/1.2stl/1.4blk on 62% from the field and some horrifying number from the line. I'm looking and so far this year his PER dropped from 22.6 to league average 15.4 and he's significantly worse in almost every category except ft%, which is still at
I don't really follow the NBA as close as I used to so I just kind of assumed he was an 18/15/2blocks guy now.
*which is still at less than 50 percent.
no dirk for Dallas tonight(rest)
hollis starting for wroten
I am curious to see how MCW plays without Wroten AND on the back of this awful start. Brown seems to be emphasizing passing and I would really like to see that myself. He won't be invisible just given the amount he handles the ball. Let the game come to you at least to some extent.
Monte Ellis is an interesting case study for me. What makes that guy so successful in Dallas? He has learned his role and become so much more efficient. I rich man's Lou Williams (who has been incredible). I hope Pierre Jackson can recover and mold himself after these type of players. Low probability, but if I draw up all of these "sixer X should mold himself after successful player Y" then one has to work, right?
dollar bill wont be able to see his favorite player as jameer nelson isnt playing
lrmam in the post around ellis
im sick of sims
cant wait for embiid
Really? I like him. Probably because he seems like the most stable guy on this team.
hollis 3
i think someone told him recently to shoot more
feel like hes been very aggressive lately
7 turnovers already
shved/ noel alley oop
noel running hook
kj putback slam over wright!
grant is in
looks like as a 4 with this lineup
mcw to the line
made both
grant block forces a shot clock violation but that stops a sixers 2 on 1
How does Grant look?
Only played 5 minutes? But nice block at the end of the quarter on an Iso jumper. Too light, but showed athleticism on the 1 play I saw him.
didnt play much so cant really give you an answer
down 28-26 end of the 1st
mcw looks better tonight
lrmam instinct is to run in the paint with the rest of the bigs instead of the 3pt line in transition which causes major spacing/timing issues
brandan wright is probably why i will never give up on biyombo
chandler 3 seconds but convington shouldnt be running aminu off the 3 pt line
lrmam and sims go to the bench and they play better
not a random one time fluke either
down 58-51 at the half
mcw to the line
split them
sims jumper
stop posting sims on chandler
chandler is causing a ton of problems on the o-boards
ATL 64
CHA 28
at the half
noel jumper
sims putback as mavs went zone i think
shved dunk!
monta has heated up
would love to know the back story between barea and shved
down 90-86 end of the 3rd
and now you are down 10
:(
good drive hollis
mcw to the line
made both
KJ 3
TAKE OUT LRMAM
Mbhah Mboute shouldn't get minutes. I think Davies oversells his hustle.
GET #12 OUT OF THE FUCKING GAME.
CAN THE SIXERS MAKE AN 8 POINT COMEBACK WITH LESS THAN 3 MINUTES LEFT IN THE GAME?!?!
shved to the line
made both
jefferson 3 is the dagger
down 12, 1:44 left
Sounds like Moute is kicking Boute tonight?
Oh Well. At least they didn't get butt fucked against their will today.
triple double for mcw
Brett Brown takes a timeout with 1 minute left in the game to devise a game plan to overcome a 12 point deficit. Lets see what he has in store!
stuff is just not falling their way tonight.
yet another close game.
Tyson Chandler
If he was out instead of Nowitzki, we probably win this game, that's just how valuable dude is for the Mavs.
Monta Ellis as usual finishes it up.
Triple Dub for MCW tonight; hopefully he continues to play the same way.
Coming out party for KJ tonight; he has am impressive learning curve. getting a little antsy about his contract now.
The team help defense is really improving. Good to see that.
I pray for the day when LRMAM doesn't either start, attempt a 3 or both preferably.
Luc had a 1-on-1 against Monte Ellis in the post and missed it. Badly.
mcw limps to the bench
lost 110-103
spurs on monday
KJ's offensive IQ seems to be rapidly increasing. Not forcing things too much (all relative), using pump fakes and allowing defenders to come to him. If I saw this and you didn't tell me who he was. I would absolutely think he is a "3rd guy on a contender" potential.
Last 24 seconds of the game Sampson had 1 offensive rebound, 1 defensive rebound, and 1 assist (+2). Let's extrapolate those numbers and just imagine the potential here
To be fair, MCW looked better tonight. I was ready to throw in the towel after the first few games, but someone got the message across. In my view, he just needs to keep some trade value for us. I was losing hope in that.
Noel has been in line with my expectations. He will frustrate the shit out of you with his rock hands, but he makes some really impressive plays. He has a future in the league, but that role could be huge or could be limited. I remain optimistic.
I was a big defender/supporter of Hollis last year. He has developed as I would have hoped. I am not giving much leniency given we have only played 16 games, but it is what it is.
KJ continues to look like a real hell of a player. His defensive potential is as good as I have seen. Iguodala does things that don't get noticed to the naked eye and I think few players match his ability. KJ will make more highlight blocks, but needs to develop that same play to play lockdown potential. I am not saying he is anywhere near the top tier of perimeter defenders, but, to me, he has as much potential as anyone I have watched.
So you're saying between him and Nerl KJ looks like the better player?
You could make an argument that KJ has looked like what people hoped Wiggins would look like thus far.
And as for MCW's trade value, I think that was compromised when Hinkie made his decision to floor this roster.
I expect people will give you some mumbo jumbo responses to get specific, but yes, that is exactly it. The handle is still not there, which prohibits full use of his athleticism.
What I like about him is he has no lack of defensive aggressiveness. I won't go and compare his upside to Wiggins, no way. But guys like Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler can slip....and KJ was in a very deep draft. You can see where my mind goes based on both what I have seen in him and how I have seen others develop.
And what I meant there is he is not afraid to use his athleticism. Attempting blocks and getting o-boards. We get smoked on the boards wiht our small lineups, but he helps us keep it from being significantly worse.
No I wasn't comparing upsides, obviously I would rather have Wiggins.
I just meant that there's a case to be made that a fifth into their rookie seasons, KJ has looked more like the 'Wiggins projection' than Wiggins has. Shot, athleticism, defensive ability, etc. albeit a sloppy handle.
I haven't seen enough of Wiggins, but yes, I think KJ has shown the aggression that I would want to see of Wiggins....and everything else.
KJ or Noel, who's more valuable?
Noel
Noel has more unique upside, but I think I take KJ. I know I am riding the hot streak here, but I question what KJ doesn't bring. He is the type of guy who you could have on the floor in any situation and I wonder if that will be the case with Noel (given strength, ft shooting, etc.).
I am drinking the kool aid, but if I didn't know where they were drafted I think this would be my conclusion.
I would agree with that but the contract situation with KJ makes this a 50/50 proposition for me.
I was leaving contracts out of it. I really need to understand what we can sign him to after this season. Obviously cheaper is better in the next 3-4 years, but is there any value to locking him in longer now versus later. I don't know the answer to that so I wont comment.
I don't think they'd be able to lock him in now as opposed to later. The point of his decision to opt for a 1 year minimum salary deal was to open a bidding war for his game in the RFA market next offseason. I guess the Sixers can bid against themselves now and overpay him or they can match when someone else tries to overpay him in the summer, but either way KJ stands to gain at the expense of the team.
For the sake of the bigger picture it's almost better if he stumbles and regresses this season and depreciates in value so that nobody throws any crazy offers his way and the Sixers can lock him up to a low, exploitative contract as is the usual drill for second round picks who outperform their draft slot. And then he can blossom into a good player.
That or do what Brian says and just send him to the D-League as both a punitive and economics measure.
But it's probably too late to do that. And would look really bad which is the last thing this team needs more of
I am referring to paying him for 4 years this summer (or the max term) versus waiting 3 years and extending him 4 years ala Jrue. Its a term thing. Obviously the 2 and 2 deal would have been best, but maybe the 1 year deal is the next best alternative.
There is no reason a team shouldn't give him a very very good offer this summer, like serious offer. Philly should match it. I would be furious if they did not.
"There is no reason a team shouldn't give him a very very good offer this summer, like serious offer. Philly should match it. I would be furious if they did not."
I'm interested to see this play out. If he continues his promising play, gets a good offer and Philly doesn't match it, that would lend some more credence to this 'Sterling' criticism of how this regime is just out to save money.
So it seems that under the Gilbert Arenas rule - see http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q45 - a team will only be able to offer McDaniels 5.46 million next year, and about $5.7 million the year after that. But after those years, they can go way up, except that they must be able to fit the average salary over the course of the contract under the cap. If a team had room or were willing to pay luxury tax, you could see a 4-year, $32 million deal, for example, but about 21 million of it would have to be paid in the last two years. You could also see a poison pill contract of the sort Morey gave Lin and Asik - a three-year contract where the third year salary balloons to the max ($15 million in their cases).
"f a team had room or were willing to pay luxury tax, you could see a 4-year, $32 million deal, for example, but about 21 million of it would have to be paid in the last two years. You could also see a poison pill contract of the sort Morey gave Lin and Asik - a three-year contract where the third year salary balloons to the max ($15 million in their cases)."
A poison pill (which isn't a term defined in the CBA at all) is, generically, just when the the accounting of the salary is different than the norm. Because the first two years are capped, the only way to offer a 4 year, $32m deal is to backload it, thus creating AAV different than what is actually being payed to the player. It's not really either/or situation.
Also, a team willing to pay the luxury tax cannot offer that type of deal. You either need an exception or cap space. So a team over the cap can use the MLE, but they won't be able to get it up to 4yrs/$32m range
Guestimating a max contract starting at $15.5m next year, the max somebody can offer KJ would be something like:
year 1: $5.464
year 2: $5.710
year 3: $16.9
year 4: $17.6
Total: 4 years, $45.674m
(which, of course, would never happen. Just defining the max).
payed, lol. It's 7 am and I'm on 4 hours of sleep.
Does the actual amount paid in each year count against the cap? Or the average over the course of the deal?
If the year 3 raise is more than 4.5% (of the base year), then the cap hit is the average annual salary.
So he could end up with a Lin like salary where his last year's pay is way more than his cap hit. That would be a good test of Brian's notions about the owners. The last thing a cheap owner wants is to pay nearly double in actually dollars the amount a player counts against the cap.
KJ has looked like the best Sixer on the floor on several occasions. It reminds me a bit of Vucevic's rookie year. There were games in January when he looked like the best player on the floor... then he was put in Doug Collins doghouse.
Thanks. Suppose he signs a 3-year offer sheet with a big balloon payment - which might not make a lot of sense, but could happen if his best 4-year offer is for a lower average salary (or if he gets no 4-year offers), if he thinks his third contract is likely to be even better for various reasons (cap, projected improvements in his play) and wants to speed up the point at which it starts, or if he wants out of here (which is just as likely as it isn't) and thinks we're less likely to match a 3-year deal with a huge balloon payment than a 4-year deal with lower payments in years 3 and 4. So, he signs this offer sheet for, say, 5.5/5.7/12.8, for an average of 8 million. Isn't there a decent chance we don't match? We might well think that contention is four years away (Embiid's 4th season, Saric's 3rd, 2015 draft stud's 4th) and not be too interested in spending $12.8 million in year 3 just to retain a player with no guarantee he'll resign when we're contending.
Good question, I think that's entirely possible.
Derek, what do you think the odds are that he's not in a Sixers uniform next season?
Very low. Even a payment like that, keep in mind years 2 and 3 of that deal will be under the environment with the new tv deal. even if they increase it gradually, that big $12.8m payment will come in the second year of the new tv deal, so it should be up substantially.
Why so confident that these owners aren't cheap? I don't strongly believe they are, but I don't strongly believe they aren't. And pretty much every time a player's been offered one of these balooning deals, his team hasn't matched. It wouldn't shock me if our owners balked at paying $13 million in one year to a guy who most people thought of as a nifty role player until very recently. Aberrantly good rookie seasons aren't unheard of. I'm a huge believer in KJ myself, but they might not be.
I mean, this is an argument we've had about 4,371 times on this site. I don't really feel like having it a 4,372nd time. I feel the owners will give Hinkie the resources he needs when he's ready to build a team. We'll just have to wait and see.
Okay, but why are you confident Hinkie would want McDaniels back on a 3-year, $8M/yr deal?
Because I'm confident:
1) That Hinkie likes long, athletic defenders that can shoot.
2) That Harris will give Hinkie the financial support he needs.
3) That with the rising cap, the structure of the deal won't be all that damaging, and what we look at as too much now won't be looked at that way in 2 years.
Obviously, a lot determines how this season plays out, but this is the perfect offseason to try to lock in a young piece long term.
Yeah, but a 3-year deal isn't that long-term; that's why it might work for the team making the offer. We have to pay a lot to match AND we're not locking him up for when we'll need him most. Moreover, Hinkie might think that he can get someone about as good with the Miami pick, on a rookie payscale contract that's a fraction of what McDaniels would be offered in this scenario.
Well, I'm sure they'll be looking into a 4 year deal. The 3 year hypothetical wasn't brought up by me, nor do I think it's particularly likely.
Even so, after 3 years they'll have full bird rights.
He'll be a restricted free agent, and he'll be a restricted free agent in the ideal offseason to get him locked into a reasonable contract. I think Sam's going to value somebody of his ilk who can shoot, young, can defend, and can fit around virtually any star(s).
The bottom line is, we'll have to wait to find out. We could sit here and speculate and what-if all night, but we just don't know. It's nice to have somebody good enough that we have to worry about losing, though.
It'll also be interesting because we haven't actually seen Hinkie in one of these scenarios. We haven't seen him enter free agency with a guy who he brought in, who he values as a long term piece. We've only seen him get whatever value he can for to either move cruft that wasn't a long term fixture of the team (Hawes, Turner), get value for guys who were about to walk (Thad), or move guys who didn't fit his long term strategy but were at the apex of their value (Jrue). This will be a first for Hinkie, so it'll be interesting to see what happens if one of these high contracts comes in.
Oh, I think it's perfectly likely that some team will offer a 3-year deal. The whole point is to make the offer that we're least likely to match, so long as it's something the team making the offer would be happy with. 3 years with a big payment in year 3 is a lot worse from our perspective than 4 years with some more scaled payments in years 3 and 4. Houston made offers like this with both Lin and Asik. I also think there's a pretty decent chance, say 50%, that KJ will actively seek to get out of here and look to sign an offer sheet that he hopes we won't match. Putting aside the mom, we offered him a really lousy deal at the start of his career while at the same we're doing sentimental favors with money for Pierre Jackson, losing isn't for everyone, he's complained to the media about his minutes, and he can't like that about 7 different guys who are worse players than he is have started ahead of him. His coach has more specifically critical things to say about him to media than just about anyone on the team; isn't it a little weird that Brown picks on our best defender for his defensive rotations? He doesn't comment on MCW's defense or Wroten's, etc. It's all speculative but I think there's more reason to think he wouldn't be crazy about staying here than there is with most anyone else on the team.
Yeah, I don't agree that we'd be less likely to match a 3 year deal. If we're willing to pay huge amounts for years 3 and 4, we're willing to pay huge amounts for year 3 and go into year 4 with his bird rights.
His minutes were an issue once this year, after he played 11 minutes. Since then he's played 28.5 minutes per night, including 3 in a row of over 30. Playing time talks. It's hard to say his coach hates him when he's playing 30 minutes night in and night out. He's said everything right outside of that one game.
And his mom has been an issue at every stop of his basketball career, and, IMO, will be an issue any time she is given a platform to make herself the story.
The 1 year contract was a move by his agent and himself to gain leverage earlier in his career than most rookies will, and a smart one considering KJ's skill sets and situation.
I've talked to KJ, his agent, and people around him. I don't get the sense that he either hates the situation (his only real grievance earlier in the year was that his minutes were cut without knowing why) or that he's looking to run out of town on the first chance he gets. Of course, I could be reading the situation incorrectly. Ultimately, we'll find out next July.
He's going to get paid the max he can get for at least the next two years. Teams have seen enough of him to know that's better value than what they can get from a veteran free agent like Iman Shumpert. It's a shame we didn't trade up in the 1st round to draft him. I wonder why OKC passed on him twice to draft Mitch McGary and Jeff Huestis.
It is really looking like his poor 3pt percentage in college was a bit of a mirage. Either he really improved this summer, or he was pulled down by having to take many forced looks in college. You can tell that at this point he is dramatically better at shooting when he gets his feet set and is uncontested. My hope is that he will gradually improve his release to where he no longer needs to be so open. But even if he stays like this, his jumper is a nice weapon given he also has a decent handle and ability to finish.
I feel like guys entering the draft as upperclassmen get unfairly dropped in the draft. If a guy evolves from a raw athlete into a skilled player like KJ, McCrae and Payne then it is a sign they will be true pros that continue to work on their games. I can see why with someone like ET or McDermott you want to be a bit wary that he used extra experience to compensate for poor athleticism. But that is different from KJ or Payne, who are elite athletes who increased their skill level.
You see raw athletes getting drafted with the hope they gain skill as a pro- and sometimes you get great results like with Westbrook. But if you have a guy who started as a raw athlete who already has shown the ability to improve, then why drop them on your draft board simply because they are 20?
He shot 40% on uncontested catch and shot shots his last year at Clemson. He's currently shooting 38.5% here.
However, he's shooting about the same rate (contested vs uncontested): 67% of his catch and shoot opportunities were contested his last year at Clemson, where he shot 31%. So far this year 62% of his catch and shoot opportunities have been contested, and he's shooting 47.6%.
There's a 3rd option, of course: He's shooting unsustainably well on contested catch and shoot jump shots. Or a 4th, that he's improved his pre-shot footwork and form enough that he's able to get his shot off significantly quicker, and thus being contested doesn't impact him as much. I'd have to go back and look at tape from clemson to compare. But 47.6% on contested catch and shoot jumpers places him among the best in the league. I'd expect a little regression.
Interesting numbers. But I'm not sure how many of those "contested" jumpers were actually open enough to where he could get off a proper (in his case, slow) release.
Without any numbers, he seems like he is over 50% when he has proper form and really poor when he rushes his shot. I'm guessing that as the lead player at Clemson he rarely had time to shoot with a delive
Interesting numbers. But I'm not sure how many of those "contested" jumpers were actually open enough to where he could get off a proper (in his case, slow) release.
Without any numbers, he seems like he is over 50% when he has proper form and really poor when he rushes his shot. I'm guessing that as the lead player at Clemson he rarely had time to shoot with a deliberate release.
The Sixers have played about as good as you could expect over the past week, and have not won a game. Either that means they are getting ready to break out and actually win some games... or that even at their best they are completely hosed.
Can the Sixers create a loophole in which they offer a poison pill contract to a player which pays out $3 million a year for the first two years and a non-guaranteed $18 million for the 3rd year? Making the sum total of the contract worth $24 million and have the cap hit average out to $8 million/year. It would put them $8 million towards the salary floor for the first two years but only require them to pay out less than half of that in actual cash. When the 3rd year comes they would just waive the player and save $10 million over two years in salary floor payments.
Wroten has arguably been the best and most consistent player so far but I don't mind watching a few games without him in the lineup. I think it could lead to figuring out more balanced and effective rotations in the long haul. My preferred starting group would be MCW with Shved and KJ on the wings and Noel and Sims down low. Then Wroten completely running the show on the second unit with Thompson and Covington spacing for him and Moute defending whoever needs defending and maybe Aldemir making sure they don't get hammered on the glass.
I posted this about Shved on the 'So Long Thad' thread a while back from a CSN article I read:
"Though Shved's numbers for his career have been pretty terrible, they have been better the more minutes he's played, to an almost shocking degree...13 and six on 43% shooting (35% from downtown) in 16 games of 30-something minutes"
Also, in his time on the floor with Rubio (a pass-first PG with a broken shot kinda like MCW) Shved had also upped his production. Only problem was that Shved was mainly used to give Rubio a breather as opposed to being paired up with him.
"...Shved saw fewer than 100 minutes on-court alongside Rubio all last season. In 2012-13, when they played over 300 minutes together, the Wolves were +4.2 points per 100 possessions, when the team was -2.5 for the season."
Shved needs playing time to produce and I think he and MCW compliment each other's skill sets fairly well. Last night's Dallas game had some evidence of that. Wroten needs the ball in his hands so just let him boss-mode with that second unit and hope for the best.
Dario youngest player ever to win Euroleague Rookie of the Month.
Article on LB from dabods
http://www.libertyballers.com/the-liberty-beat/2014/12/1/7313397/76ers-draft-pick-dario-saric-wins-euroleague-mvp-for-the-month-of
Sorry, that should be Euroleague MVP of the month, not Rookie.
Nice to hear good news after the early season drama with Efes. Anyone who watch the FIBA Worlds this summer could tell Dario is already one of the better players in Europe. But its still good to see how quickly he was able to transition to playing in a higher league this year.
No doubt in my mind that he would be the the best or second best active Sixer if he was on the roster right now (of course that is not really saying much.) he is basically a more physical/grittier Tony Kukoc who makes everyone around him better. But unfortunately he won't be a Sixers for years.
spurs are on a back to back tonight so they might rest some combo of parker, manu and duncan
no duncan, parker and splitter
hanks Pop. Sixers better bring their A game tonight if they hope to finally get a win. At least now they have a shot.
I bet they get destroyed. My prediction is that Danny Green goes 11/13 from the 3 point line.
In a game with Parker and Duncan shelved, Sixers down 15 in 2nd qtr.
If you needed a layman's explanation it would be something like this: Spurs play smart, Sixers play not smart.
In all probability even if the Spurs fielded a team of the bottom of their depth chart, there is a high likelihood that we would still lose.
Hoping the 2nd half brings some adjustments. Effort is there so far.
I'm out. This is just aggravating.
Nah c'mon we got this
What do you guys think the final record will be?
I'm sticking to my preseason 10-72 estimate.
Or I think it was 12-70* actually
Not sure we win that game in Minnesota now. This team doesn't understand what it takes to get a W. Being competitive seems to be enough reward for them.
Really disappointing to see MCW with yet another key turnover in crunch time. He has to learn how to take care of the ball if he is going to be a starting PG in this league. And he's on the clock with this team whether he choses to believe it or not. Shape up.
9 undrafted players and no one with real NBA experience. No experience. They can't hope to execute even rudimentary offensive or defensive sets, regardless of whether the individual players have talent or potential. A really bad environment for MCW and anyone else of relevance to be evaluated or developed.
I'm 100% on board with the full rebuild. But the 30M Hinkie is not using is making this a wasted season in terms of player development. Sprinkle in a few 2 year contracts for vet players better than LRMAM (90% iof the NBA) and they could execute. But any time you have multiple guys like Hollis, Jakaar and Gordon and you might as well call the game and just run a practice.
yeah execution itself is challenging.
with Noel sitting, we were trotting out lineups with Sampson, Gordon and Grant who had barely played lately and the miscues on offense and defense were there.
How come Noel didn't play?
his hip, nothing serious
The guy is injury prone. Hinkie is building a team of fragile players. Skinny as toothpicks; get pushed around; missing lots of playing time. Usually a benefit of having a young roster is relative durability. Not the case with this friggin' team. Oh and one more thing: our #3 overall pick has a stress fracture in his back and a broken foot at 7', 250 lbs.
Sigh, so sad to see how far you've gone into tabloidness.
Sterling's a vile hate filled racist misogynistic convicted slum lord.
He ran his franchise the same way for decades and it was mostly ignored...even lauded by some because the clippers were the most profitable NBA team around.
What brought Sterling to the forefront of the nation was his being an awful human being, not an awful owner. An article that starts off with a premise like this is below bleacher report.
We get it, you don't have patience. You think that the sixers should somehow be better. You long for the days of mediocrity and the 8 seed. And it's your sand box - but this article is pretty despicable.
Especially since they were still cleaning up the messes left by Doug Collins less than a year ago.
I expected more from you but it's the typical believing in the rebuild in theory but being unable to handle it when you're in the middle of it. The sixers best asset when Sam Hinkie got here was Jrue Holiday. I'm really not sure what realistic expectations one should have had that he could turn that into.
Fortunately, Sam Hinkie doesn't care what you think (and before anyone chimes in about how he should care what the fans think, no he shouldn't, the best owners/gms don't care what you think- they know if their plan works, you'll show up.)
I'm gonna need for you to retard your anger level a few notches (bonus: what movie is that from?)
Nowhere does the article compare Harris' character in terms of racism and misogyny to that of Sterling. It talks about "methods" strictly in the business sense so I don't understand the outrage.
"But really, all Josh Harris is doing is committing a white collar version of Donald Sterling's blue collar crimes"
..meaning profiteering. not getting exposed on TMZ telling his gross mistress about how Iverson can't come to the games any more cause he's black.
Thanks for reading, or whatever it's called when you just look at a headline and come up with a hysterical reaction to what you think was written, then call the writer a hack for stooping to sensationalism instead of being a bastion of good taste and critical thought like you are. Kudos.
All else equal, do we have a win if we had drafted Wiggins and Stauskus? (my desire)
Do we have a win if we had drafted Parker and Gordon?
I would say no. Obviously the roster would probably be different, but assuming there were no changes.
I would say maybe, but that's beside the point.
What they would have is a nascent nucleus in place with visible growth and potential for being properly evaluated. instead of a gaggle of D-Leaguers weighing down both the value and valuation of the 3 or 4 second or first year potential rotation players they already had.
Yes. I get jealous watching the Bucks. Jabari and GA are a core. Jennings, Henson, Middleton, Sanders and Ilyasova all have interesting role potential. They have some swag to them. One day....
I am not sold on Jabari at all.
Giannis they should be excited about. I honestly dont know what he becomes but whatever it is will probably be dominant at his position. 3 or 4, perimeter or inside/out, he has the tools to be a guaranteed mismatch. All he needs is minutes now.
Jennigns still plays for them?? You mean Knight right?
Would you trade rosters with the Bucks? That includes Embiid and Saric and a trade of all the upcoming draft picks both teams have.
Probably.
The only thing the Sixers have over Milwaukee is that they have a potential franchise player in Embiid. But I have a lot of concerns over his long term playing ability.
Good question to think about, but I would not trade rosters. I enjoy watching the bucks (and do regularly on League Pass). Giannis is unreal potential, and he is developing now that Kidd understands that he just needs minutes. I love that kid (not the other Kidd). But honestly, outside of him, not too exciting when I look down the road. Sanders is good for stretches, but Noel could easily be him in a few years. Knight is playing OK but he's not very consistent. And Parker still has big question marks regarding his fit and lack of athleticism. Embiid will recover from his injuries, and MIL has nothing that rivals his potential, even Giannis. Throw in a guaranteed top 4 pick in this draft plus Miami's pick, Saric in two, a developing KJ....no thanks. A better argument would be Minny but I wouldn't do that either.
It's tough getting through this period for many fans. Some of these players obviously have no business being on an NBA roster, and it sucks watching a stiff like Gordon take/air ball 3's, or Jakar being Jakar, this list goes on...but the future of this team is tangible. I would not dream of trading rosters.
Those are all fair points. Overall, I would say no I wouldn't trade rosters + picks but it's very close. I think I'm biased as well. So net/net is probably side with both twolves and bucks as unbiased third party.
I agree about patience, but saying embid will be a super star is such a crapshoot. Yes I have an optimistic outlook but it's tough to comp that to Gianiss where we already have some idea of what he may be.
I think Parker and GA compliment each other incredibly well and have a more positive view on Jabari. That means not necessarily a top 15 guy but as a top 30 guy.
I think their third piece could come from a wide range of spots. A big man like bosh or Ibaka? I think point guards are easier to come by (a common point by Brian) so filling out the core seems reasonable.
All of that said, I like Embid, Noel, KJ, Saric and our picks this year as good probability lotto cards. Mcw is just a lotto card to me. And the rest are expendable/replaceable through free agency in any given offseason.
I'd trade with Minny in a heartbeat.
I'll feel a bit better if Embiid actually plays this season.
Surrounded by these players and coming off surgery he'd probably look terrible so you'd probably feel even worse
noel expected to play tonight
no shved which means mcw for 48 minutes or something worse like lrmam running point
Oh my, no Shved. Whatever will they do tonight without him? The lad was just coming into his own, streaking down that 0-17 court like a YMCA Pistol Pete. He must've pulled his only muscle.
I read the average viewership of games is under 30,000 households. Add that to 12,000 at games ad you have less than 1 in 100 people in the region tuning in. I wonder how that compares to the other teams in town?
Wolves are playing Sixers inspired basketball.
Basketball gods shining on us tonight.
Andrew Wiggins' shot goes down like butter
Meanwhile KJ and that shot regression....
My goodness this game is horrific. So much athleticism on the court but so many Wrotenesque plays happening on both sides. It was nice to see us win so many o-boards in that first quarter.
I am VERY reluctant to say this on such a a small sample size, but Jeremy Grant is making some interesting plays. I think its going to be net/net ugly for him this season, but I had written him off in general. Hoping I am wrong.
noel hook bank shot
mcw slow to get up, got slapped in the face
looks ok now
Who is going to play point guard if he twists an ankle or needs a breather? Davies?
lrmam
are you joking or serious?
he really has been the backup PG. KJ doing some but his handle is .... "mediocre"
dei lynam mentioned he might cause he played it in high school apparently
I have so many things to say about that but I'll just leave it alone and let you guys watch the game
KJ is everywhere on D
some....of...the....ugliest basketball you may ever see in your lifetime.
I could build 2 mansions right now
KJ is awesome for TV
down 2 at the half
first to 50 might win!
yo Sixerfan, does it hurt your eyes as much as mine?
It hurts mine and I'm just reading
sometimes
KJ, McW, Thompson, Davies.
At this point me may be better off having Noel take all the shots.
34-32 Wolves.
We scored 9 FRIGGING POINTS IN THE 2ND.
Now that's the Sixers I know.
signing off
may i wake up with a win tomorrow!
At least Minnesota's broadcast team is enjoyable....please pull this out.
I think their best option in an offensive drought is playing through Henry Sims......
Look at that, they played a quarter that wasn't completely hilarious.
Rober Covington. Heaven sent to make a shot for us. 2 3pters and looks like he has the rhythm
Pls. keep passing him the ball
Do the Sixers have a giveaway when Noel scores 10 points in a game? I don't think it would be hard to buy insurance against that.
I defend these guys but boy does his offensive game look ugly sometimes. No lack of aggression though.
Up 5, 6:28 to go. really hope they win this one, I feel bad for Brown and the players. Would be completely discouraging to lose here
If MCW could only figure out what to do once he gets to the lane. He gets there with EASE against pretty much any defender. Then I want to gorge my eyes out.
And that jumper.... MCW's jumper or Noel's post game.... thats a tough one.
!! Covington!
Noel finally caught one.
Covington bails us out on a bad shot too.
Here we come gentlemen, lol smh
omg it's happening
they have brainwashed me to pleased with this....
please let this plan workout.
I dont know how we won. But we won.
MY GOODNESS THIS WAS UGLY.
No comments.
I need some soda to rinse my mouth.
Victory!
Amazing they won a game in one of their worst played games. Missed 18 of their first 19 3's, MCW 6 TO's but 20/9/9/3. As ugly as you'd expect in their first win- but happy to see it. Hopefully at least 9 more.
Probably wasn't one of our best games this season, but it's nice to know they can occasionally win a game. Not having watched the game, I don't know if there are any meaningful takeaways besides MCW starting to put up good stat lines again, KJ outplaying Wiggins even on an off night, Grant making a nice little impact in low minutes, and Covington maybe being a useful NBA player? Slow shooters are kind of a dime a dozen, but stretch fours have some extra utility relative to the Hollis Thompsons of the world. Other than that, I notice that with Detroit's loss tonight we're only 1.5 games worse than them, a team with Josh Smith, Greg Monroe, Drummond, Jennings, Caldwell-Pope, Caron Butler, D.J. Augustin (Chicago's perfectly serviceable starting point guard last year), and a very good coach. Maybe Stephen A. Smith should do dumb pieces on ESPN on whether there are any Pistons fans left, like he's apparently doing for us.
Really unimpressed with Wiggins tonight.
I can't tell if he got outplayed by KJ who airballed like 5 3pointers but remained aggressive all night and fueled his inner Rodman.
What I can say is that that 'passive' knock on him is looking like it may have teeth. He just disappears for stretches, like he's not on the floor. I predict all throughout this season he will show flashes of the star player he can become and that'll be it. Just a tease.
In a game like this with d-league like play o offense, where you would be encouraged to step up, he was just THERE, and that's all.
Maybe this was a down game for him. Beautiful shot though.
The passivity was really apparent in college and it was so annoying that if you brought it up last year people would call you stupid or blame it on Bill Self. Not only was Wiggins the featured guy on that team, especially after Embiid went out, there was so little activity on his part outside of whatever he was asked to do on offense. A guy like KJ had a tip dunk every night. Wiggins rarely did anything like that, and he's a superior athlete. He'll be good but he'll underachieve unless he really changes.
I think it was less about being passive and more about his handle not being developed enough to take advantage of his athletic gifts.
I think the end result is still the same, in that he's not as good as he could be. And I think the concern is just as legit, as I think there's a decent amount of improvement needed to where he can be as dominant as his potential indicates. That's why I was't as high on Wiggins as many were. But I think it's more about a lack of a basketball skill that comes off looking like passivity on the basketball court.
But, that's very much an argument for last spring, and doesn't matter much to us at the moment.
There's the lack of a refined handle, but he also doesn't make a ton of athletic hustle plays that don't require a handle. Even ignoring blocks, KJ makes a greater impact on a game right now without a handle, and with measurables that are quite a bit less impressive than Wiggins's. I just think it's readily apparent that Wiggins doesn't have a great motor. Not a lousy one either, but not great.
+1
Yeah hard to make that argument when you see his poor man's version beasting it all over the floor in the same wacky game.
Wiggins is taller than KJ, but is he really that much of a superior athlete- because KJ seems pretty freakish in his own right. Guys who are 6'4.5" just don't do what KJ does. It is not just weakside or chase down blocks. There were times he stood in the middle of the lane protecting the rim like you would expect from a big- and he was altering legitimately altering shots by bigs. He also has a fast 2nd, 3rd, 4th leap that is Rodman-esque.
Not saying he is going to be a star- but I'm not certain I'd put KJ's athleticism way behind anyone in the league. Of SG's, only Wade is similar in terms of length and explosiveness. But KJ lacks Wade's fluidity, shot making and ball skills. But they are in a class of their own in terms of speed/strength/explosiveness at that height.
Well, Wiggins had a 44'' vertical in that non-combine test to McDaniels's 37 inches. His wingspan is only an inch greater than McDaniels, or at least it was when measured in 2013. That surprised me.
Wiggins has the potential to be a better defender than KJ because he is better suited to defend both SG and SF. But I don't think Wiggins will ever be the shot blocker that KJ already is. There is some sort of innate shotblocking skill guys either have or they don't. Like why has Iggy never been much of sa shot blocker? Why can Thad be good at chase down blocks but otherwise almost never block a shot?
O course it is hard to guage what value shot blocking is from the SG positoion. IMO, it could be more valuable than you think if it is combined with say Embiid, Noel and another plus defender at SF. Yo would think it could put most opponents off their game knowing they could be blocked from ahead and behind.
I wouldn't put too much stock in combine numbers in terms of athleticism. Especially not max vertical numbers. Iguodala had worse numbers than McDaniels. Wouldn't you say he's a top 10 athlete of the past decade?
How many airballs did Wiggins let fly from 3 and turnovers did he have?
I don't know, the box score doesn't count airballs. Fortunately it's not like they count for negative points or anything so it really doesn't matter; what matters is Wiggins missed just as many shots. How many times did Wiggins use his 44-inch vertical leap to any useful purpose? KJ had 4 blocks and 9 boards.
What if instead of trading for Kirilenko and Karasev, we traded for Kirilenko and Teletovic? Teletovic had 26 and 15 tonight, 14 defensive, 5 threes. 7 other players in the history of the league have done that and the worst player among them was either LaFrentz or Troy Murphy, both pretty nice players. Teletovic is 29 and a free agent after this year, but it would be nice to have a shooter on the team and maybe we could resign him through his prime. I know xsago would love this.
Kirilenko might not get traded now due to a personal matter
But Teletovic is a productive player and is only making about $3 million. The purpose of trading Kerilenko and Karasev is to avoid paying luxury taxes on two guys that aren't really bringing much to the team.
Thought maybe we could demand him in return for the cap relief we're offering, like Karasev. I mean, what's more valuable to them, the free agent or the kid on the rookie contract they were apparently offering us? I'm not sure.
I'm actually not as big a Teletovic fan as you think. He's a legit stretch 4 though in a league where stretch 4s are valuable (only Curry can match his range). I mentioned acquiring him a long time ago when he was out of the rotation and presumable could've been had for very little in terms of assets (the league wasn't aware of his abilities yet). That ship has sailed though. I don't think he's available anymore and i don't think singing him in FA is a good idea (he'll be worth quite a bit to someone and he's a liability on the defensive end). He does have the ability to fix the Sixers spacing issues though. And he's definitely not gun-shy like Thompson.
Just reading through most of the comments...I would agree on the ugly game. Also Wiggins was very unimpressive. What's worse, he was invisible out there. In contrast, KJ was out there and everyone knew he was. He had a brutal first half in which he barely caught rim on his 3's (maybe 4 at the half?), and he had some bad TO's as well. But he never let his missed opportunities on offense negatively impact his D, and he still stayed aggressive on offense. I'm a bigger fan every game.
Covington is an NBA player. He may be slow, but he has deceptive moves and he'll be able to hit open threes. When Embiid get's here, the spacing will improve and a guy like Covington will have open shots. He's doing what Thompson should be doing.
Lastly, understanding that many of these guys are young and just running around on D without much of an idea what they are doing....it's fun to see the makings of a long, athletic, aggressive defensive team begin to grow. Minny was terrible tonight. Just plain bad. But the sixers length gave them problems on D. It will be fun watching these guys develop. Oh and Grant acts like he belongs. I think he does.
Shout out to Dollar Bill for calling out McDaniels for his lack of rebounds early in the season. The kid certainly heard your complains. Somehow he now has 37 boards in the last 4 games.
I really don't know what to say about KJ. He's simply been so much better than anyone could've expected that it's difficult to put his performance in perspective. What is his upside? How much more can he develop?
He has at least 5 very impressive plays every game now and looks to be improving on a nightly basis. I've been constraining myself so far waiting for the sample size to grow, but he really has blown out even the most optimistic expectations to the degree that he probably has a legit shot to be part of the hypothetical future core. He's definitely played himself in the conversation along with the lottery picks.
I would echo what you said and what was mentioned above. It is actually interesting that to the extent "basketball IQ" was a complaint about KJ, he seems to have a really good feel for using his athleticism.
While Wiggins showed incredible tools last night, KJ was always visible on the court. And I think he makes all of these highlight plays without really sacrificing anything or making dumb decisions when he launches into air. That is not to say he doesnt miss rotations or have a ton to learn but those fast break blocks and putbacks are consistent and insane. It is different than the guy making steals but giving up tons of plays.
I expect the 3 point shot to regress but I am just so excited to watch him over the year.
I like what I see from KJ so far, but it seems to me to be a waste. Since he only has a one year contract due to Hinkie's inflexibility, why would KJ ever want to stay with a team where he endured 70+ losses?
I don't think he has a choice in the matter.
He has at least 5 very impressive plays every game now and looks to be improving on a nightly basis.
I was a KJ fan way before we drafted him but even I never had any idea he could show an uncanny ability to pick things up so quickly.
Early in the season, he would go 1 on 1 with this man off the dribble and get stripped clean. But now he protects the ball with his body and barely attempts crossovers.
Then his forays to the hoop usually would end up in blocks or crazy wild shots being that you can't just rise up over NBA defenders. Now he's using shot fakes, hesitation and even double pumps on dunk attempts to adjust.
On defense earlier, he would pick up quick fouls for being overly aggressive and trying to block shots while on the ball but he has toned it down and now tries to just challenge the shot and not pick up the cheapie.
My greatest issue with him was awareness of spacing and movement when his teammates were driving or cutting, and now he seems to be getting it very well. Even to the extent that he can now execute a decent pick and roll read.
He has always been taking shots within himself and even with increased minutes doesnt really take many bad shots (unless you count open 3s, which is subjective) even when he think's he's feeling it.
The shot is still streaky. The mechanics are questionable and his release point changes when his guarded (higher) as opposed to wide open but I have hope (FT%) that it can be legit.
I honestly don't know what his upside is; is he near a finished product that is adjusting quickly, or is he going to get better steadily like a Paul George as he adds skills like ball handling, or shooting? It's something to look up to in this long season.
(sigh) As much as I like KJ, I REALLY WISH I was saying this about Noel.
"(sigh) As much as I like KJ, I REALLY WISH I was saying this about Noel"
Remember, all rookies are not created equal. KJ is a full year older than Noel and played for 3-years at Clemson before entering the League. Nerlens is 20 y/o coming off of a lost season, having only played 1/2 a year at Kentucky. It's almost like Noel is a freshman in a new school trying to figure out where his next class is and how not get noticed or get in trouble.
I'm THRILLED with what KJ is showing this year! I'm also fully expecting to see some of this from Nerlens as the season progresses, and in seasons to come.
I'm not overly worried about Noel's performance thus far. His peaks and lows are consistent with the performance of other similar type of big men in the past. Players like him take years to develop and rarely have huge contributions before their second contract.
What i am worried about is his lower body strength and weight. You can talk all you want about his jump shot, hands or box out abilities, they are not going to truly make or break his career. His ability to put weight and get stronger will.
Some good NCAA games tonight for which I know Brian will be glued to the TV.
Texas v. Kentucky: looking forward to watching Turner and Towns.
Kansas v Florida as well.
shved out again tonight
http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2014/12/sixers-malcolm-gordon.html
i would expect lee to be waived once furkan's deal is finalized
really looking forward to kj putting ibaka on a poster or ibaka blocking the dunk attempt
lrmam leaves durant wide open for 3
mcw shot is still a mess
sims jumper
lrmam 3
kj to the line
split them
noel to the line
split them
westbrook is killing mcw who needs to stop guessing which way westbrook will go
I'd like to see McDaniels guard him or Durant.
thats a bullshit call on davies
good work on the o-boards leads jakarr to the line
split them
KJ getting up for some rebounds.
kj to the line
made both
down 7 end of the 1st
solid job of getting to the line that quarter
sims and 1
missed it
mcw bad jumper goes in
mcw to the line
split them
t on westbrook
sims made the ft
lrmam to the line
split them
kj to the line
split them
nice 9-0 run cuts the lead to 7
mcw and westbrook jawing at each other
kj 3
airballs the next one
mcw to KJ alley oop!
nice hustle by covington saved the ball
down 10 at the half
some good, some bad
most of the good with at least one of sims or lrmam on the bench
well someone gave sims the green light from 3
Apparently they're confident in his shooting. He does shoot the team's technicals.
In the land of the blind, cyclops is king....or something like that.
8-0 OKC run
lead to 17
@DET tomorrow which might be a winnable game
I was greeted by a terrible bricked three by McDaniels, then he had one rim out, then Noel had a terrible foul trying to steal the ball from Westbrook, I think. This is fun.
They don't run an offense when they're forced into the half court, do they?
Nice lob from MCW to a rolling Noel. Free Papa Johns for everyone! That was Noel's 11th point.
We only lost by 12!
They didn't play too poorly, and Covington really looks rotation-grade right now. Probably not an exceptional shooter, but he brings a lot more to the table than shooting, surprisingly. Activity from Noel on the glass is nice, but I wish he were blocking and altering more shots. MCW's shot selection has gotten really out of control, and a large part of that has to be the guys he's playing with and trying to do too much to keep us in games, but even so, most of his teammates are better options than he is right now. And even Noel, who isn't, should be more involved.
I know. It's just weird that I'm happy because they didn't lose by more than 20.
I think fans love Covington because it's refreshing to see a guy hit better than 28% from 3.
I like what I've been seeing from Noel over the past few games. He seems to have improved at rebounding and looks more confident.
I don't know what to make of MCW. I thought his 40% FG was just a rookie thing or just a product of this system and the players around him. Now I'm thinking that it might be the way he is.
A guy is a non-shooter and really a non-scorer in college, I don't find it surprising when he ramps up his shot attempts in the league and is really inefficient. Some of the shots he takes are as if you're watching a really limited player like Kevin Ollie or something gun for 20 without a skill set. Not just the shot itself, but somehow he doesn't look natural going into these outside shots.
Miami lost by 24 points to the Bucks last night. Right now they're 7th in the conference and would have the 16th selection in the draft if the season ended today. That's not bad compensation for Thad IMO. I expect them to remain in the 7-8 range in the east this year.
just started watching
kj with a nice jump stop dunk
mcw layup
sixers up 1
singler and 1
made the ft
bad mcw turnover
noel goaltend
down 4
59 seconds left
lrmam to the line
split them
o-board
kj missed 3
lrmam fouled and back to the line
split them again
down 2
smith to the line
split them
down 3 15 seconds left
hollis 3!
tie game!
great d by mcw on jennings and noel on monroe
off to OT
you have to finish that sims
why is sims in
up 1 with ball, 1:22 left
noel floater thingy
up 3, 29 seconds left
good d
lrmam rebound and they foul him but they had one to give
mcw to the line
made both
pistons dont make a FG in OT
sixers win 108-101
at ATL on Wednesday
Stan Van is this year's Eddie Jordan, and the Pistons are this year's Bucks, but without the injury excuses. You rarely see a team less interested in trying to win a basketball game. The Sixers have no talent, but the Pistons are like a tin man team out there.
haven't seen a team miss so many open jumpers since... the Sixers.
Jennings = ouch
We have some talent. Two of the five best rookies in the league, and for all MCW's struggles maybe the best sophomore. Our bench rookie wing had 4 blocks tonight, for the second time in a week.
Some comments from around the league, or really just one comment. While Wiggins continues to sink to new levels of torpor and uselessness (tonight he went 3-13, with one rebound, 0 assists, steals, blocks, or FTA, and two turnovers, while the guy he guarded scored 18 on 12 shots), his teammate Lavine has been surprisingly good. 22 and 10 assists on 15 shots tonight, with just two turnovers. I thought Lavine was at least two years away from being a competent nba player.
And Thompson's fade-away 3 to send the game into overtime was eerily similar to last year's buzzer beater by Hawes.
If we win too many games and are stuck with Mudiay, that might be alright.
2nd win of the season.
Robert Covington killed it tonight. He is officially the hot man shooting wise but he showed more; some good touch, finishing and good reads off the ball. Also his slow-footedness is less pronounced now that he is making better rotations.
KJ continues to be ice cold from outside but as usual doing KJ to help the Sixers win.
Hollis Thompson played well tonight but he is a starter in name only. BB likes to keep the platoons together so he can switch em up so I expect to see more Covington and KJ who played well off each other tonight.
For the Sixers fan that has not concluded that MCW is the worst point guard in the NBA after that horrid stretch, this game was emblematic of why there was excitement about him.
20pts on 8-12, 15 ast but 7 TO (2 or 3 were bad hands IMO), 8 reb, 2blk, 3stl and a whole lot of steady play for 45 long minutes.
Best part was his defense, when on Jennings; he didnt cheat around screens and didnt gamble. Fought hard all night.
I think these non-Wroten games have been the turning point for him. Best player tonight.
Ohh yeah did I also mention that the 2014/15 Detroit Pistons suck?
Drummond looks slow, their guards can't shoot, and Josh Smith needs to be put out of his misery. Tough time to be a Pistons fan.
Somewhere BB is feeling vindicated that Detroit's putrid results are a not indicative on the caliber of coach.
Luc Mbah Moute wasn't completely useless today. He had a nice game.
GSW drops the Bulls in Chicago with Curry having a poor shooting night. 112-102
Their 97.6 Def Rtg is good for best in the league.
Iguodala has assumed his bench QB role effortlessly and has found willing comrades in Barbosa? and Speights!, who is thriving in that capacity.
David Lee is expected to be back pretty soon. What to do?
Trade deadline not far off
I feel like Lee could at least replicate Speights's surprising and perhaps unsustainable production. Obviously they need to keep starting Draymond Green.
Only 4 teams in the league are at least $1 million over the luxury tax threshold- Brooklyn, LAC, NYK, and Toronto.
I finally had a chance to watch the game. Great win, because any win is. How the hell is Detroit getting so little attention for being the complete shit-show that they are? It was great listening to their broadcast crew call the game under the premise that this would be such an easy victory, and surprised that the Sixers actually showed up ("this game actually may go down to the wire tonight").
Very impressed by MCW. His shots at the rim FINALLY started to fall, but more importantly, this was his best game of the year as the teams PG. He ran the show. He really owned the position tonight and lead the team. I really hope he can build of this game.
Brown needs to get some credit for keeping this team together through the first 20 games. I'm happy for him and and these two wins have been effort wins. They are surely not going to win many this year but he has these guys playing hard.
I always thought that if Thompson were on a team like the Spurs he would be "just another solid shooter" in the Spurs arsenal. Meaning he would be another perfect fit. I guy to set up and hit open jumpers. And I thunk he would despite some of his struggles here this year. He's pressing a bit, and when he tries to do more than catch and shoot he gets himself in trouble. Big shot by him tonight. Covington is sure to take some of his minutes down the road.
Don't mind the typos....
His struggles this year are partly a result of the team re-working his jump shot this year to speed up his release. I'd expect his percentages to start creeping back up as he begins to form muscle memory.
nice piece on KJ
http://www.si.com/nba/2014/12/09/kj-mcdaniels-76ers-shot-blocking-rookie
when he comes back i hope brown doesnt start wroten with mcw
I'd like to see a lineup of:
MCW
KJ
LRMAM
BobCo
Noel
This would give them shooting, defense and the ability to switch on defense. A bit undersized, but they have issues whatever lineup they have out there. At least this one has some shooters and scorers and some defense and would put MCW and Noel in a position to play towards their strengths. This lineup also is essentially the players getting the heavies minutes recently- so why not start them.
The bench would be:
TWro
Shved
Hollis
Sims
I'd look to trade Wroten fairly soon if he doesn't begin showing some semblance of being a piece that actually fits what the team does on the floor. He's worth more in theory than practice but I have no idea what they could get back and who would want him enough to give up something of value. I don't really consider a 2019 second rounder and a severance player to ax immediately for a few 100 grand in savings to be 'of value' like some other fans do.
I'll +1 your lineup if we can swap Shved around with Luc. It's bad enough that they had to use a roster spot on a rookie's homeboy/guidance counselor or whatever, but does he really have to start too?
I wrote a post kinda like yours up there somewhere. Shved is first on the team in PER with a solid 20, and second in WS/48 and TS% to Covington who's been either hot or inactive, so I expect him to drop some. He works well with MCW and has a jumpshot so I would give him a go to see how it works. If Moute wants to suck, let him do it on the second unit with Wroten who won't pass him the ball.
What does THIS guy know???
"Magic Johnson gets how winning teams are built. You don't snag star players by being the 10th-best team in the league.
In the NBA, the best teams start from the bottom. And that's where he hopes the Los Angeles Lakers are headed.
"I hope the Lakers lose every game, because if you're going to lose, lose," said Johnson to Newsday. "I’m serious. If you're going to lose, you have to lose, because you can't be in the middle of the pack. You either have to be great or you have to be bad, to get a good (draft) pick."
Fans may not like to hear it, but that's the truth of how the NBA works. A single player can make a huge impact on a team, but only a few known commodities are available in the NBA draft every year.
If you aren't one of the first teams drafting, you likely miss out on that talent -- which makes it harder to rebuild.
"I'd rather be all the way bad than be in the middle," Johnson."
- See more at: http://yahoo.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201412/magic-johnson-hopes-lakers-lose-every-game-says-they-have-lose#sthash.CFALce3b.dpuf
@WojYahooNBA 76er will acquire Nets' Andrei Kirilenko, a 2020 second rounder, right to swap 2018 seconds and cash for Brandon Davies, sources tell Yahoo.
Deal expected to be finalized on Thursday. Nets likely to send a minor player back to Sixers in deal too, sources said.
Oh here we go a timely example of an "asset" that I was just talking about above.
Hopefully Brandon Davies has a younger brother who is exactly like him and currently modeling his game after his so they can use that 2020 2nd rounder to get him.
To be fair though, there's no way Davies could have fetched anything in a trade a couple months ago. So unless this is strictly to help mitigate Billy King's damage to Prokhorov's bank account then Hinkie did alright.
Davies was just a non-guaranteed contract that King can cut to save a few more tax dollars. Sixers really got next to nothing in return for taking on a bad contract, but whatever. Sor of a non-trade, trade.
Not if you count the fact that I won't have to watch Davies anymore.
That alone makes this second only to the Holiday deal for me.
The Sixers put up a sort of ode to Davies game tonight. Hustle without skill on display.
Sounds touching.
I didn't even know there was a game on tonight. I know they play Brooklyn on Friday. Davies will probably torch them for 40.
If you want a more "fun" way to look at the trade, Davies is officially worth more than Turner :)
You should start writing some articles in Russian, Brian. I can help you translate.
Like:
"Davies to the Nets, Sixers move closer to being less total 'Говно' - and who could say "net" to that?"
only more clever.
He's seriously like the Russian Michael Jordan though, so your readership will probably jump considerably if they hold on to AK for a bit.
Given a few more minutes, MCW would have gotton the rare quad double (including TO's.)
ironically, now his unwillingness to shoot the ball is what is affecting his overall play
He's just trying too hard to figure himself out. He'll learn how to be most effective towards winning eventually, but the roster around him isn't exactly helping him...
New stat to keep track of: # of times Nerlens falls down in a game.
Great effort from him tonight though.
Couldn't tell is Sims was in the doghouse or not. We could have used him tonight; Covington was exposed defensively inside and Grant was exploited by Horford.
So the Sixers are paying a combined $9.7 million for Eric Maynor, Travis Outlaw, Marquis Teague, and Andrei Kerlinko. That's a lot of money for some 2nd round picks.
They may be taking on that salary- but they are not paying a cent, since all o those deals occurred when they were under the salary floor and committed to pay up to the floor one way or another. If anything, the deals at the deadline saved the owners money, since they pay out 1/3 of that year's salary but get full credit towards the floor. And this recent deal includes cash from NJ.
According to bball-ref, $9.7 million is their combined salary for this year and all of them except for Kerilenko was acquired prior to this season.
I know they have a salary floor but it seems like they could've gotten more for that money.
Who knows? It probably is dependent on the market. But I agree they did not get much in return.
You just wait. Plenty more are coming :) Hinkie has plenty of time until February to figure out how to get 5 more 2nd rounders...
I'm tired of Brown's "Family" talk--always saying how the team is a family and they stick together. Then the Sixer's go and trade Davies for nothing, even after Brown complimented his hustle on multiple occasions. I guess they're a family--that is unless they can get a 2nd rounder 6 years from now for you.
Don't get me wrong, I could care less about Davies. I just wish Brown would not sugar coat this turd with talk about family and brotherhood. If everything goes right, only 2 of the guys playing now will be on the team if the Sixers are ever good. It's a business, Brett.
Keep in mind where he is coming from. Everyone understands the business aspect but in San Antonio I'm sure there is/was a "family feel" around that organization. If Brown is trying to build a foundation for that here, I have no issues. I though it was a nice organizational effort when Brown, Hinkie, MCW, Noel, and Embiid all went to see Saric play over the summer. Doing those things should be looked at as a positive IMO.
More than 2. KJ, Noel, MCW, Covington, Grant, maybe Wroten, even Hollis and just possibly Sims could all be part of a good Sixers team. Maybe even Jakarr, who knows? I think the hope is that about 5 of those guys will be on this team in a few years. Anyway, it's irrelevant. A team like the Spurs has a family-like atmosphere even though the supporting cast varies from year to year and only the core has stayed constant. While the Stephen Jacksons of the world are there, they're family (and indeed, I've read that he and Pop are friends to this day). Family doesn't mean no trades and no one gets let go.
I think we can agree that the earliest the Sixers will be "good" is 2016-17? If so, then Noel, MCW (and maybe Sims as a 11th or 12th man) are the only ones who will be here when the Sixers are good, in my opinion. KJ is on a one year deal. Hollis and Grant are D-leaguers. I am concerned that Covington is not very good once people take away his jump shot, and he is a poor defender. Wroten is my favorite Sixer (just for fun reasons) but he will be an RFA after next year. I don't see Hinkie keeping him. Jakarr is beyond a project.
I also would like to dispute the two replies that said there's a family feel at San Antonio. I never hear Pop say anything campy like that. I hold that the Spurs have more of a corporate attitude.
Maybe I'm just being too negative and jaded due to the prospect of losing this year and next--at a minimum.
Ooohh, you are wrong about this. I've read/heard Pop and the Spurs refer to the team as family many times. i don't view them as having a corporate like atmosphere at all.
As for who's worth keeping, i think you are basing your opinion too much on current ability. All of these guys are young. Even if some look more like D-leaguers than NBA players doesn't mean that they won't be good enough for a good team in a few years.
I don't think too many of these guys will be with the Sixers long term, but some will. Some of MCW, Noel, McDaniels, Wroten, Sims, Thompson, Covington and Grant will be there. How many is impossible to tell right now, but some definitely will. My over/under is on 4.5
I think you are missing the point. It is Brown saying that, not Hinkie. BB may feel just as exposed to all of this as the players do. Sure, he has more leash in theory, but should he feel any safer that he will be around in 2017 when this team does begin to turn.
I agree the culture part is hard, but I commend these guys for the attitude they do take. Bad body language with themselves sometimes, but little fighting with each other.
"I agree the culture part is hard"
I mean seriously, I don't think it takes a really rough cutthroat culture to trade Brandon Davies. I think we've been awfully nice letting him play in the league for two years. Even if the Nets cut him, it'll look good on his resume when he seeks work abroad. Who knows, maybe he'll have an nba career because we gave him a chance.
Yeah i agree. While i do think too much roster turnover and treating players unfairly can seriously hamper the culture being built, i don't think cutting someone who should be glad he got a year and half chance in the NBA is going to harm the culture in any way. In fact, i bet Davies is grateful for the opportunity and holds everyone on the Sixers organization at the highest regard. Noon else would have given him this chance.
I also think it's a healthy sign that we're moving on from our most obviously non-nba player.
Right. Davies hustles and is an absolute professional in how he approaches his craft. But, like, you can find guys who hustle, work their asses off, AND are legitimate NBA players. Cultures aren't defined by Brandon Davies'.
Gutierrez waived and ron roberts signed
mcw, hollis, covington, lrmam and noel starting tonight
no lopez and mirza for the nets
and the uncalled moving screens begin
covington 3
mcw to the line
split them
mcw banks in a 3
wroten is back tonight
wroten to the line
made both
grant and kj cant be passing up open 3's
wroten to the line
made both
down 4 end of the 1st
covington 3 in transition
again
moving screen on noel, sure
covington 3 in transition
wroten to mcw alley oop!
up 1 at the half
good last 3 or so mintues to end the half
I certainly hope that is the worst game we ever see Noel play- and by a wide measure. To say he looked like Stromille Swift on an off night would be unfair to Swift.
it probably wont matter but memphis played double OT last night
I attended the game last night. A few humorous things:
1. I had to really scrap to find someone to attend with me. GF bailed and the list of people interested in a Nets/Sixers game is "limited" these days.
2. My buddy pointed up at the scoreboard with about 9 minutes to go and said "please don't tell me that is true". MCW was the only 76er on the court who had scored a point in the game. I wonder how many times that has happened.
3. The nets have this little sound gimmmick where they tell the crowd to make some noise and play a fake crowd in the background. I thought it was real the first few times and then caught on.... not sure how I feel about that.
MCW looked like the best player on the court to me. And yes, I was the guy throwing in the towel on him about two weeks. I don't know where I stand these days, but he has been much better these past 7 games or so.
I am worried tonight could be ugly.
hey now they are just honoring one of the defining moments in nets history - that time they invented fake crowd noise:
http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1997/New-Jersey-Nets-pumping-up-the-crowd-noise-with-fake-cheers/id-ad7dd0436867c4fb88e09a5bcb064fcd
its possible mcw just needed extra time to get into game shape after not playing cause of the shoulder surgery
Absolutely. Get into game shape and get the feel back for the game. If he can hit an open shot 40% of the time, I would feel good. I don't think he is there yet.
Also - getting the feel for good shots, bad shots, etc. tough with a team of this caliber, but you can see his effectiveness with RC33 on the floor. Leaes me encouarged.
Watching this kid Porzingis...man he looks impressive. From a pure fit perspective, he just might be the best pick for the Sixers. I mean, at 7'1 and he looks like he could play SF in the NBA. He has a nice looking shot (at least from my non-scout's eye), and who knows, when this year shakes out he may be a legit candidate for No 1 overall. He definitely needs to bulk up some but the talent is there. Interestingly the video indicates that Hinkie attended this game, but I guess he does a lot of scouting trips. I have not really considered this kid as a top 4 pick, but I'm sold now. Can't wait to watch more of him.
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Kristaps-Porzingis-vs-Barcelona-Video-Analysis-4793
im not a huge fan of his but sims has been better lately at rolling to rim rather then always popping
mcw 3
up 7 at the half
noel to the line
split them
good fight back after memphis made a run
hollis 3, good look from mcw
up 12 end of the 3rd
covington for 3!
up 17!
up 18!
down to 11 with 5 minutes lefts
do not choke this away
Snowflake melt.
Brownout.
18 up, 8 min left... 'Get ready, brother, we're comin' in for a landing.'
Wheels don't activate, descend from aircraft. Prayers. Chaos. Screams. Moans. Writhing. Gnashing of teeth. Imprecations. Pleas. Silence.
2-21.
21-84.
tough loss; I feel for the WFC crowd. To think their loyalty may finally be rewarded in a rare night where some stars aligned.
didn't watch but it seems that Covington is a legitimate knockdown shooter who can actually play. Hoping that changes Hinkie's raw-athletes tunnel vision a bit.
@ESPNSteinLine ESPN sources say Turkish big man Furkan Aldemir has landed four-year deal in $12 millon range from Sixers, with first two years guaranteed
really? bleh.
Must all be a part of the private equity strategy.
Seems more like part of the questionable roster building strategy, but what do I know.
Is your boy in the doghouse? Saw DNPCD for yesterday's game.
I saw ankle. This seems like a lot of money for a goodish rebounder/possibly savvy cutter, but he's a pro, Davies was not, and I can't really complain about surrounding MCW and Noel with some competent players. I would like MCW to end the season with some good stats so we can trade him for a good return and draft Mudiay.
I don't mind the contract at all. Who cares about the 3M each of the next 2 seasons. They will be way under the cap regardless. And the team options the 3rd and 4th years will be good whether he is a worthwhile player or not. Worst case, having a 3M non-guaranteed contract is a nice trading chip, as other teams always need those types of deals in order to clear cap space. So worst case, he gets flipped for future assets in a couple of years. Best case, he is a solid rotational big for 3M a year.
Were you talking about KJ? As down as you are on the Sixers, you can't possibly be down on KJ, can you??? I know you hated the pick (for reasons I cannot understand) but he's be revelatory this season.
He hurt his ankle in the prior game, came back to finish but was unable to go the following night.
I wasn't down on that pick. Down on the contract, but that doesn't really matter.
Gotcha. For some reason, I thought you weren't happy with the KJ pick on draft night because he wasn't a great shooter.
Just to review, you've said pretty recently that he's "dumb as rocks," has no offensive game at all, that we shouldn't expect him to improve in that regard because he hadn't by the time he was a junior, and that he's a stat-chaser on defense who gambles for blocks.
seems like a lot of money
Yeah, it seems like a lot of money to me too. I didn't quite expect him to sign for the typical minimum per year deal, but this is definitely more than i thought was realistic.
We'll see if he's any good...
I guess they needed a little extra to convince him to come over. But even as I am saying that, it doesn't makes sense since he wasn't doing anything close to special overseas and this is the NBA.
As long as they have team options for the 3rd year I wont lose sleep but yeah too much in my opinion.
It depends on what you consider as special. He wasn't a star in Europe, the way most player that make the jump to the NBA are. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. He's a role player that knows his limitations and doesn't play out of his comfort zone. He's all boards, screens and rolls to the basket. Doesn't have much game outside of that but he's been really god at those areas in Europe.
Overall i think he can be useful in the NBA, but unless surprises i don't expect him to be worth 3 million per year. He's more of a 4th-5th big type of player.
Do you have like an NBA player comparison for Aldemir? In terms of skill and playing style
I'd say somewhere between poor man's Varejao and European version of Reggie Evans.
He's nothing special, but he might find a role on the Sixers long term. He has a better chance than the Davies and the Gordon's of the world that's for sure.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-doomed-partnership-of-the-sacramento-kings-and-coach-michael-malone-175201188.html
"Nik Rocks!" I don't think Malone got the message. I don't know what to make of Randavive. He seems really out of touch.
Malone was someone I wanted the Sixers to hire a few years ago. Too bad the Sixers didn't start this whole "rebuilding" thing a season earlier.
Nerlens with a strong game yesterday, the best of his young career so far.
http://www.nba.com/sixers/news/141215-noel
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-ignored-evolution-of-the-sixers/
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24895235/evan-turner-on-boos-i-dont-want-to-sound-super-weird-but-jesus-was-hated-too
Delusional. On and off the court.
parker tore his acl and is out for the year
This draft class is cursed. Embiid out for the year, Parker out for the year, Randle out for the year, Gordon and Smart both with lengthy injuries, Vonleh has struggled with injuries...
We are down to 2 of the top 7 drafted players being mostly healthy (and remember it was an 8-9 player draft). Only Wiggins and Exum have been healthy so far...
Vonleh's been healthy for a month and Charlotte has recently moved him to the inactive list just because they don't have room on the roster for him.
Aldemir has plantar fasciitis and probably wont play tomorrow
So Rondo got traded to Dallas for Wright, Crowder, Nelson, the Mavs 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder.
Teams are definitely stingy with trading away picks these days.
Interestingly, the Sixers probably got more for Thad than the Celtics for Rondo (Mavs pick will be around 25, Miami's pick around 15).
Not really. Wright and Crowder are much better than LRMAM and Shved
Sure, Wright is far and away the best of those mentioned. But he's on the last year of a deal, will have a ton of suitors, and I can't see him wanting to go back to Boston. The pick the Sixers got (Miami 2015) is far better than the pick Boston got.
Yes, but we got a draft pick in the 11-16 range. The Celtics got Brandan Wright, who may well not be as good as whoever we pick there, who isn't on a rookie contract.... and who is a free agent. So the Celtics got approximately the 25th pick in the 2016 draft (this year the pick is protected 15-30), Crowder, and Brandan Wright's Early Bird rights (he was only signed for two years, so all Boston gets are "Early" Bird rights, which aren't as useful as Bird rights in resigning a player).
I'd say Crowder is in the same boat as LRMAM and Shved (possibly even worse than them). Just because he plays for a good team doesn't mean he's anything special.
Anyway, all 4 of those guys are mostly there as salary filler. Wright was the only big expiring contract Dallas had. Not sure he's there because of his value as a player to begin with. And him being a free agent in the summer minimizes his value to the Celtics in the trade.
Brandon Wright has been averaging 8.8 points on 68% shooting and 1.6 blocks in only 18 mpg. He's an underrated player and is expected to get a good contract next summer. He's young, Boston needed a center, and I guess this moves them first in line for contract negotiations.
It's still a lousy trade for Boston. Id take the #15 pick over the #25 pick and a half year rental of Brandon Wright.
I was talking about the package of Crowder and Wright being superior to that of Shved and Luc, not Crowder individually. Individually, yeah he's in the same boat, but Wright tips the scale.
Wright has quietly been excellent this season, like Stan already mentioned above. He's actually shooting 75% (according to BR), 26.1 PER on the year, and his total win shares are higher than Dirk's. If Boston is able to resign him, then Wright + 25 is a better return than 15 IMO.
Either way we're splitting hairs here. Both teams got subpar returns.
Well, they just turned Shved into another 2nd rounder (they even saved bonus cap space in the process). The Thad trade keeps on giving...
corey brewer and turiaf( who might get re-routed to a 3rd team) to houston for troy daniels the kings 2nd rounder this year and HOU's 2nd rounder next year
Dallas' 1st round pick to Boston is 1-3 and 15-30 protected for 2015. It's 1-7 protected from 2016 to 2020.
This gives Boston 5 additional 1st round picks in the next 3 drafts. They also have Philly's 2nd rounder this year. Which will probably be pick #31.
So from 2014 to 2018 they will have had 11 1st round draft selections.
@WojYahooNBA Sources: Three-way Corey Brewer deal taking shape: Ronny Turiaf to 76ers with a second-round pick. Sixers send Alexey Shved to Rocket
Wtf are they doing?
Isn't Turiaf shut down for the year?
possibly, the deal is for the 2nd round pick
So much for Shved the savior.
What's the $$$ difference between Turiaf and Shved? They're probably giving up some of their cap space for a second rounder.
like 2-3 million difference
They are actually saving around 1.5 million AND get a 2nd rounder. Shved was obviously worth much more than we thought :)
Can't say I share your enthusiasm for 2nd round picks. I've been critical of Shved and still believe he's on his way to a Euro-league contract next season (unless some team here overpays), but he was putting in quality minutes for the Sixers so obviously he had to go. This deal was just more of the same.
The 2nd round pick they're getting for him won't match Shved's production, I'd bet on that.
Oh and yes, thank god they got some much needed cap relief, now they finally have some breathing room.
*meant as a reply to the Rondo vs Thad trade discussion above
btw, I like Rondo going to the Mavs. He'll fit in well there..basically anywhere where he's got offensive talent around him and he doesn't have to score too much he'll fit in well.
http://deadspin.com/nba-shit-list-the-philadelphia-76ers-who-are-capitali-1668452530
noel foul line jumper
covington transition 3
mcw from the post
T on mcw
noel goes to the bench which opens up the paint which gives the hornets a ton of open 3's
down 37-26 end of the 1st
wroten 3
i might overrate it cause the shit at center before him but noel is really good at defending the paint already and he should only get better at it
You're not overrating it. his defensive "at rim" % is very good - top 10 last I looked, but he's out of position quite a bit (rookie so whatever).
Of course he then proceeds to cancel it all out with his offensive ineptitude on the other end.
You know what the response to that will be. "Either you love everything Hinkie is doing, or you want the team to be a perennial #8 seed." The Hinkie ass kissers are worse than the Tea Party with their reductive bullshit. If you want to be reductive, I think the other side of the coin is a lot closer to the truth. Here's what the Sixers have as a reward for their tank job, so far:
- Maybe a decent 3&D guy (who currently is shooting 30% from three, and that number is dropping like a rock, so I guess he's just a D guy) who's probably going to be making somewhere around the MLE in his second season. And that's exactly what a team with nothing needs, is to pay a perimeter defender only the MLE.
- A below-average PG who can't shoot.
- A decent defensive big who can't rebound and can't give you anything on the offensive end...at all. Ben Wallace without the rebounding.
- Greg Oden v 2.0
- Frederic Weiss v 2.0
- a bunch of 2nd round picks
- Their own pick at the top of a lottery headlined by a pudgy PF w/ no athleticism and a PG who fled to China. A pick in the middle of this draft, that everyone is super-excited about.
I'm all for building through the draft. Someone wake me up when that plan actually begins.
Some of that's fair and some of it isn't. I think what you say about KJ and MCW and Noel is accurate, today. But of course, MCW could get quite a bit better. Conley and Lowry and Bledsoe hadn't shown nearly as much as he has by their second seasons. I wouldn't put a ton of faith in MCW because he's fairly old and still has one of the worst jump shots in the league, but I would at least expect the turnovers to drop with experience. Noel could improve his rebounding and offense. Camby, a player of similar build, was a poor rebounder his first few seasons and got to be one of the league's best. I think it's unlikely that Noel will always be quite this small and bad on the glass. Embiid may or may not be Oden 2.0; our team's doctors don't think he is, but they may be wrong.
In any event, Noel, MCW, Embiid and KJ aren't perfect prospects, but while I wouldn't say that if you don't agree with Hinkie you must want the 8th seed, I would say that you at least have to point to who he should've drafted instead. So far Wiggins isn't making the Wiggins-at-any-cost strategy look too good. I guess we could fault Hinkie for failing to draft Giannis, or even Shabazz Muhammad, who's starting to play really well (3rd highest PER among small forwards). But Giannis still hasn't actually done anything and Shabazz looked really dubious a year ago. Some people think Hinkie should have drafted Exum this year, but I doubt you're one of them. And KJ, limited as he is right now, was obviously a tremendous value pick where he was taken. So I don't know that you really have a problem with Hinkie's drafting, or just a problem with who Hinkie's been able to draft.
As for this upcoming draft, the quality of which isn't Hinkie's fault, you didn't mention Towns, and I see nothing wrong with Mudiay fleeing to China. Derrick Rose would have done the same had someone not taken the SAT for him. He turned out fine and I don't even think he's unintelligent, just poorly educated.
Yes, McDaniels was a really good value pick. Of course, when you sign him to a one-year contract and have to either let him walk or pay him MLE-level money in his second season, I'm not sure how great the value of the pick was. I'm not heartened by the possible best-case scenarios you came up with for Noel and MCW, either. Three guys started out as shit and turned into something of some value...three out of how many guys who started as shit?
Something that also has to be taken into account is exactly how much development is really going to happen for a player who might have an outside shot at being something in this league? They're playing with absolute dregs, against the second and third units of every other team. Really, against opponents who don't give a crap. It's like the Globetrotters playing the Washington Generals, every night. They've got a nutless coach who's essentially going through the motions and cashing his checks while the GM makes a mockery of the entire situation. How could you possibly develop anyone under these circumstances? It's funny, they're going to have a state-of-the-art practice facility in Camden, and a bunch of AAU-level "professionals" practicing how to lose in it.
If they ever do get lucky with one of these high draft picks, that's when you can start the clock on the team building, because there is nothing in place. There is just nothing here at all, not on the floor, not on the bench. It's ground zero after two years of this mess and the best advocates of the strategy can come up with are insane comps showing I don't know what...that one guy out of a thousand somehow rose from the below-mediocre level all of these players currently reside at? Or the great diagnosis of a medical staff that let their Rookie Of the Year finish out a 19-win season with a shoulder in desperate need of surgery? And really, this is the same medical staff that gave the OK to the Bynum deal. That happened after Harris bought the team. But now I'm supposed to be heartened with their take on Embiid, despite the broken back and broken foot after his first 20 games of competitive basketball.
Ugh. This entire situation just makes me wish I grew up a hockey fan.
Do you really think the medical staff gave the ok on the Bynum deal? 24 year old franchise centers just don't get acquired for lottery protected picks and some guy who couldn't get off the bench. I think Harris OK'd the trade knowing it could give him the reason to blow up the team.
Wow, that is some extreme conspiracy theory you have. The Bynum trade was a disaster, but this is the first I've heard anyone suggest the Sixers made that trade hoping Bynum would fail. If that was the case, Harris could have much easily passed on paying the extra dollars to amnesty Brand and add vets and he could have just started the fire sale right then and there. No reason to trade away 3 years worth of 1st round picks along with Iggy in order to start rebuilding. They could have simply traded away Iggy for a pick. The Bynum move was a horrible trade, but I really don't see some evil plan as its impetus.
As a caveat, I tend to be a glass half full guy. I can understand a large portion of your view, but I don't think its that unreasonable to take the other side.
I don't agree with all of Hinkie's picks or strategy, but I think it comes down to a few things:
1. Do you think Embid could be a franchise player or not. You seem to be putting this probability at
2. Do you really think Okafor + Towns are poor prospects. I am not all that high on Towns from what I have seen, but I think Okafor is the most polished big man since Sullinger (yes I get the joke) however with more athleticism than you would think. His defense is awful but I am okay with that given how good his low post game is and high post passing game is.
3. I just don't have the same doubts on development. It is so easy for all of us to watch game to game and miss what might happen year to year. I am also looping in players signings into this. Covington can shoot and I am fairly optimistic on him being developed as well. Look around the league and consider how long it takes Trevor Ariza, Brandon Wright, Kawhi Leonard, etc. to become real players.
I don't think Okafor is going to be dominant in the NBA, though it might be nice having one guy who isn't completely useless on the offensive end.
Basically it's just rinse and repeat until they win the right lottery and get the next LeBron. In the mean time, they may as well just forfeit the games. If they take Okafor that will be five top ten picks used on PF/C in a three-year span. That doesn't sound like team building to me.
But you also haven't thought anyone was going to be a dominant guard/forward/center in any of the drafts. I think you were fairly positive on Wiggins towards the draft, but I think you would have retracted those thoughts after seeing what he has done at this point. Maybe if we just get all of these mediocre guys (per your view), we will just be the best team in a mediocre league fairly soon.
There is no such thing as the perfect prospect ex-Lebron. Okafor looks like a stud offensive big to me. Maybe in the Al Jefferson camp with better passing.
I think you would be best off to avoid the sixers until post 2015 free agency. You won't enjoy watching these guys develop at this stage in their careers.
I agree that Hinkie apologists can be brutal. I till don't agree with the Saric pick and other small things. I question how MCW will develop without shooters etc. But then bringing in Covington and bringing over Aldemir reverses my tune a bit.
I don't think the forced conspiracy narrative really works. Just don't watch and come back when they are ready to push for success.... which in your mind is never, and in my mind will be next summer.
I don't find Wiggins' numbers all that alarming. The two key things for a guy who you want to be a wing scorer are 3pt shooting and free-throw rate. He's doing fine in both areas. Needs to put on some weight, probably improve his shot selection and he'll be fine. Don't think MIN was a very good situation for him, but at 19 his numbers are fine by me. I'd be much happier if they had Wiggins right now than Embiid, even taking his "slow" start into account.
Yeah Wiggins is doing fine considering that pretty much everyone else in that top 8 group is injured now except Exum. How about if they had Parker right now instead of Embiid?
I'm less concerned about Parker's long-term prognosis than Embiid's.
He's made 12 of just 33 threes, out of 288 shots. If he made just one less three, he'd be shooting 33% instead of 36%. It's a really small sample. Anyway, I think it's probably a concern, even at 19, when a guy is shooting 39% on twos. Giannis shot 44% inside the arc at 19; McGrady, 46% at 18; LeBron, 44% at 18; Paul George, 54% at 20; Durant, 45% at 19; DeRozan, 50% at 20. Here are the modern-day players I could find who shot 40% or less from two in their rookie seasons: Brandon Jennings, Kemba Walker, Kirk Hinrich, Dajuan Wagner, Adam Morrison, Rubio, Eddie Griffin, Hansbrough, J.R. Bremer, Rasual Butler, T.J. Ford, D.J. Augustin, Austin Rivers, Ilyasova, Steve Blake, Chris Duhon, Corey Brewer, Kyle Lowry, DerMarr Johnson. (And some lesser names here: http://bkref.com/tiny/bOOTv ). Not a really inspiring list; there are only about 3 wings on it, and the wings that are on the list were pure shooters or total flops.
We'll see if he winds up there when the season's over. Give me the list of guys who did it in their first 30 games, it's probably much longer.
Well, so far I went through the top 22 rookies in scoring with 2P% between 40 and 44% since 1993, and of those only Caron Butler, Russell Westbrook, Bradley Beal and Raymond Felton were this bad after 25 games. Beal isn't a great comp; even in this season, his 2P% is still 41%. Butler was a disappointment. Westbrook's great. His problem in his rookie season was his finishing; Wiggins's is getting to the rim at a pretty low rate and terrible mid-range efficiency.
down 66-46 at the half
elevator play for a RC3
good end of the 3rd
down 85-72
thats a bad call
To sort of continue the discussion from above, it seems to me that some of you are too down on the young guys coming in. I'd say from a purely statistical standpoint it's pretty safe to say that there will be at the very least 5 top 50 NBA players in these 3 draft classes even if a lot of things go wrong (and looking at history, realistically that number is closer to 15 - it's usually 5 per draft class). I don't think this sample of 3 draft classes (that coincides with the Sixers rebuild) is any different from any 3 year sample in the past.
Just for fun, would you guys name your top 5 or top 10-20 prospects in the 2013, 2014 and 2015 draft classes combined? And not just when they were drafted but you can use what you already know. I think it would be a nice exercise that might help us determine where the Sixers are headed.
FWIW, my top 15 would be (as of right now):
Antetokounbo
Embiid
Exum
Okafor
Noel
-------------
Wiggins
Towns Jr
Parker
Gordon
Mudiay
-------------
Saric
Winslow
MCW
Oladipo
Randle
I'm a little irrationally high on Exum and if it were up to me i'd probably still take him over anyone, but my gut feeling aside this is a more reasonable outlook right now. I used "---" just to separate top 5 and top 10.
So before starting to bash the Sixers organization for the picks, lets just take a step back and evaluate. To me, right now, the Sixers look like they are well on their way to have 5 of the top 15 players/prospects from these draft classes. I'd say that's pretty good.
P.S. Look, i get Brian's pessimism about Embiid. His injury scares me too and Brian's right that Parker's is less dangerous long term even if it takes more time to heal. But i don't think anyone can doubt his talent. And i think the fact that most of the top prospects are injured right now serves as a cautionary tale about avoiding injured players during the draft just because they are injured. Knowing what they know now, would the Bucks still have taken Parker over Embiid?
Having Saric on that list seems crazy to me.
Giannis tops out at like Iguodala in his prime IMO, maybe top 15, not top 10 in the league. Think Wiggins and Parker are the only other guys on the list w/ a realistic shot of reaching that level, but it's going to take a decent amount of development. If Embiid can ever stay healthy enough to stay on the floor for a full season, he'll show glimpes of being a potential top-10 player, but doubt his career will be long enough to reach that level and/or his athleticism will outlast the injuries to the point where he can be dominant.
Noel needs to be a dominant rebounder, and probably block more shots than he does right now, for his defense to make up for his lack of offense to the point where he's considered an elite player.
Anyway, my point isn't really about the quality of these three drafts. My point is they're still at step 0 in the rebuilding process after two years, and they're probably going to remain there for at least a couple more years, and they're more than happy to trot out this disgrace of a roster for several more seasons. They're a joke, and the league is going to be forced to do something about it, unfortunately they don't really have a lot of options.
a bad joke. sixers are trash. what is perplexing are the happy faces in stands at wfc cheering on these stiffs/incompetents. attending only makes sense if you don't care about basketball quality. disgraceful product. the upside down cake baked by harris, hinkie and brown should be served in each of their hometowns.
"gonna keep bangin' out good days"
"it's not about wins and losses, it's about a process"
- brett brown, the wealthy gym rat with a career record of 21-86
hollis isnt playing tonight cause he is sick
sampson starting for him
the play they ran for turner last year(i think they called it kansas) they are now running for covington
up 23-20 end of the 1st
that draft pick chart is a thing of beauty
both of these teams running bad 3 pt shooters off the line is driving me insane
haha...like the TWO guys who chased Payton off the 3pt line?? lol
down 42-37 at the half
rc3
good answer after being down 11
grant has been super active this game
up 64-60 end of the 3rd
payton's refusal to shoot would drive me insane
grant block, KJ 3!
up 7
please bench wroten
mcw 3
wroten and 1
made the ft
wroten 3
KJ SLAM!!!!!
covington limps off
covington came back in
won 96-88
@ MIA on tuesday
Hey sixerfan1220 thanks for play by play. I know this place is terrible these days but some of us still like to stop by and read about the games.
Well done.
For all the criticism about the organization's "failure" to make KJ sign a deal he does not want to sign (which I think is a joke because this teams needs talent where they can find it), the early returns on the Covington signing sure look good. He's under contract through the 2017-18 season at roughly $1MM/yr. He is showing something new every game and looks like he absolutely belongs in the NBA.
Grant looked good tonight too. Noel is starting to get more comfortable with the things he knows how to do (face the basket, quick hooks, etc..)rather than forcing a low-post game which may never happen. I like the way they are bringing him along as well as his response.
Good win tonight. I love the disruptive length of this team on the defensive end. It gave Orlando fits in the 4th quarter and they had no answers. The guys on this team play hard for each other. Great to see. BB is doing some good things.
According to John Schuhmann (of NBA.com)...
@johnschuhmann: The Sixers are up to 11th in defensive efficiency. Brett Brown for COY: http://t.co/QOdgYoalcs
and thats with spending a ton of time in transition cause of all the turnovers
This isn't really news, it's just the national media catching up with it. They've been in the 12-14 range for about a month now. And they'd be even better if they weren't turning the ball over at a ridiculous rate which is leading to a lot of transition opportunities. There was a video clip with Brett Brown on ESPN a while ago (recorded at the end of November when the Sixers overall D was a slightly worse) where Brown mentioned that the Sixers defensive efficiency in halfcourt sets only is in the 6-8 range (apparently they track those stats too but i don't think they are publicly available).
The offense on the other hand is an entirely different story. Right now it's historically bad - i think worst in the modern era. It's a very bad combination of huge turnover rate and bad three point shooting. Most offensive categories are regular bad, except TO rate where they are truly putrid.
@ESPNSteinLine The Detroit Pistons have just announced the release of Josh Smith. Stunning
Didn't they turn down several trade proposals earlier this year? Something big must have happened.
Turned down a trade to Sacramento, allegedly, that Ranadive was pushing for but Malone was against.
I bet it was for Carl Landry and Jason Thompson. It doesn't really do much for Detroit since they weren't saving on years or much on cap space.
Yeah that was the offer (although they were some discussions about swapping Landry for Williams).
Overall, it's shocking this may have been a good decision by SVG. If he doesn't think he can recover his trade value at least to the degree where they can get cap relief, this may have been the right move.
@WojYahooNBA: Pistons will use stretch provision on remaining $26 million of Josh Smith's contract.
Wow. Now that's a shocker. I can't even explain it...
Josh Smith may be bad, but waived mid season? Something must have happened.
In a statement released by the team, Pistons head coach and President of Basketball Operations Stan Van Gundy said, "Our team has not performed the way we had expected throughout the first third of the season and adjustments need to be made in terms of our focus and direction. We are shifting priorities to aggressively develop our younger players while also expanding the roles of other players in the current rotation to improve performance and build for our future. As we expand certain roles, others will be reduced. In fairness to Josh, being a highly versatile 10-year veteran in this league, we feel it's best to give him his freedom to move forward. We have full respect for Josh as a player and a person."
Translation: We are going to tank as soon as we can unload Monroe.
Yup. I'm still surprised they couldn't find a workable trade for Smith.
It's actually looking like he has a lot of suitors, and most of them are legit contenders even. Houston and Dallas are the frontrunners, but also LAC, Memphis, Miami, and the Kings are all scrambling to try to get something done (according to Marc Stein). Miami is even applying for a disabled player exception (McRoberts), so they could trump Dallas and Houston with a better money offer.
Rondo is a former Oak Hill Academy teammate of Smith but I think he'll choose the Rockets over the Mavs because of Howard and more playing time. Houston still has their biannual exception too.
The Sixers are the only ones with enough cap room to pick him up off the waiver wire. I used to think he'd be great in Philly, like 3+ years ago
Yup. And it's funny because SVG himself was the biggest opponent of tanking just last year during the Sloan conference...
So after this season his contract is going to take up $5.4 million of Detroit's cap space until the summer of 2020.
i get the feeling 5 million is going to seem like nothing when the cap jumps
Looks like Bosh is out tonight, so that's nice. He had 30 the first time Sixers played Miami.
Any news on who might replace Turiaf whenever they release him? I was kinda hoping they would fly McRae over so we can get an early look at him but I don't know how realistic that is.
@WojYahooNBA Philadelphia is re-signing forward Malcolm Thomas today, league sources tell Yahoo Sports.
Malcolm Thomas is back after the injury.
@dlynamCSN #SixersTalk Tony Wroten right knee sprain… the Sixers do not INTEND to play him. Keep in mind they have nine guys including Wroten
nice drive by mcw
mcw needs to be quicker with his passes
lrmam from the post
sampson at pg
down 32-19 end of the 1st
kj to the line
made both
heat have made like 5 or so garbage shots towards the end of the shot clock already
mcw floater
noel to the line
split them
credit where its due, lrmam putting in some good work tonight
grant at center blows right by birdman, 15-5 run cuts the lead to 8
kj to the line
made both
down 57-42 at the half
its closer then score seems, wade wont miss and they have hit alot of shot clock winding down shots
im signing off, got my wisdom teeth out earlier and need to rest
nice answer cuts the lead to 15
picking off where sixerfan left off
Up 84-82 after Grant's layup. Ad-1 FT coming after TO.
Greant is BEASTING off the pick and roll on the Heat's slower defenders. Good for him.
Sixers D tougher and more physical but Heat are also missing 3s so that helps.
89-86 Sixers
Wade back in to restore order after his bench coughed up double digit lead.
FTs for Birdman should make this a 1 point game.
MCW taking some ill advised shots as usual.
Key turnovers avoided could have given us a comfortable lead.
LRMAM with clutch 1 on 1 layup. Could be POTG
Birdman 1 of 2 FT
LRMAM iso comes up empty, another TO 24 sec.
89-87 still up
With 89-87 1:56 left. It wnet something like this:
Wade iso pull up 2pt shot. brick
Covington FG miss.
Wade pull up 3. brick
MCW pull up 3. brick
Heat FG miss, rebound off Noel's stony digits. Heat 3 pt attempt miss.
Offensive rebound, Heat 3pt shot brick.
Covington rebound. Fouled = 2FT made
91-87
Essentially game over after quick two attempt misses for Heat.
It's a win. POTG will be crowned by whoever watched the whole game.
Sixers D forced a crapton of turnovers in the 3rd. Think they picked up on Heat's offeensive set after the first half. Heat personnel didnt look good today.
Dwayne Wade looked terrible out there. I can see why Lebron left. It must be frustrating watching Wade chuck up a long 2 knowing that he's going to miss it and kill the drive.
Jerami Grant looks like he's going to be at the least a solid NBA player.
2nd straight game Covington went 1-5 from 3. His 3% is going down but he did have 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, and 1 block to go along with his 11 points.
I wonder how many of MCW's turnovers are due to Noel's concrete hands.
tracking Sixers general progress;
Scouting reports have caught up to KJ and his few moves can be taken away. The 3 is not falling and his % has come down to 30s and still falling. He still continues to ball. Another furious put-back dunk should make the highlights tonight.
Scouting report has also been filled out on Covington and he has been chased off the 3pt line. He obliges and puts it on the floor but the results are putrid honestly. Still appreciate the effort. We probably need better screens and more cuts to open him up.
Nerlens continues to be a work in progress. He is now the defensive anchor for this team. When he was switched on Wade tonight, he was amazing. The end result was a banked 2pt shot from 18-19 ft but the sequence showed his unique versatility and ability to bail us out in the perpetual switching defensive scheme. Offense continues to be lapses and steady progress. If someone can chart his rebounding rate these last 10 games, I think it's going in a good direction.
MCW - a mystery at this point. Reserve judgement. When he plays well (tonight) we usually have a good chance to win.
Jerami Grant - too soon to tell but he looks really good. No offensive polish but like KJ he maximizes what he has. His presence has boosted our ability to clean up boards and work inside. A Reggie Evans with some grace. Made a 3 tonight.
I don't think Covington has been that bad when forced to drive after being chased off the line. I've see a couple nice little euro-steps this year and he has some sneaky smooth moves which get him to the hoop. Honestly I've been impressed with that part of his game.
Love the way Grant has been playing. These second round picks get destroyed by many on this site but honestly this is the real reason why the 2014 draft was projected to be so good. When all the hype on Wiggins and company started to wind down a bit towards the end of the 2014 college season and you got to see some of the flaws of the top picks, the tremendous depth in the class never wavered. Guys like Grant and McDaniels in the second (and others who slipped) are what the long-term story of this draft class will be about.
Hats of to the tremendous effort on the defensive end. It got so bad for Miami on the offensive end that at one point they weren't even thinking about running plays, but rather just trying to not turn the ball over. The length on this team is going to be a force.
This last part is especially true. During the last 15-20 minutes of the game, Miami simply didn't run anything. Their offense was destroyed by the Sixers activity on the defensive end and they eventually just regressed to Wade isos and some ill advised pull up long two, just so they can avoid turning the ball over.
The Sixers offense wasn't anywhere near good in the game, but they managed to grind out a win just depending on their second half defense (they came back from 23 down early in the 3rd) which was quite incredible (wreaking havoc all over the floor). Miami may have had 15 turnovers in the second half alone (and most of the were steals or off some type of deflections).
I should also say that they won purely on effort and energy and it's doubly impressive considering they had only 8 players available for the game.
Yeah i think we already have a pretty good feel about most of these guys.
McDaniels - spectacular athlete, great shotblocker (especially for a wing), terrible ball handler and a work in progress in his catch and shoot threes. His upside i think is limited (his future i think is as a 2nd or 3rd best wing on a team) but he's definitely a keeper as long as the contract situation gets resolved.
Grant - another great athlete with a jump shot that's a work in progress. He reminds of a young Thad a lot. His handle is ok i think, especially at PF and i like how strong he is with the ball, when driving to the basket. That can be a real strength if he's in the froncourt and not on the perimeter. I think his future is as a small ball 4 rather than a wing player (even though he might be able to guard wings). I think he has enough size (length), rebounding instincts and strength to effectively guard bigs inside. I didn't think he had that during the draft (when i thought he was an athletic wing without a jumpshot). He'll be a quality rotation player going forward.
Covington - regardless of sample size, it's pretty obvious the guy can shoot. His jumpers don't just go in, they look good, especially his FTs. He doesn't offer much other than shooting but he's been ok driving when opponents close out on him and he's shown adequate feel for the game in all other aspects of offense (passing spacing, cutting, going after the offensive glass etc.). Defensively he's never going to be great, but he hasn't been terrible on the wing, which is an improvement on where i thought he'd be. He's rebounding fairly well for a wing, so there's that. Gets his share of steals and blocks too. He too looks like a legitimate rotation wing going forward. And f he keeps shooting like that, that contract is going to be a huge bargain.
MCW - impossible to tell right now. I've never seen a player has so much variance on a game to game and week to week basis. He looks more like a rookie would this year than he did last year.
Noel - Does a ton of great stuff defensively, but will not maximize his potential until he adds significant strength. That hurts him especially on the offensive end (by far the biggest reason why he's that inefficient).
As for the others, Sampson is very active defensively and has a nice handle for his size, but he's simply not an NBA player at the moment. He's nice as a 14th-15th man, maybe, but that's definitely not what the Sixers should be after right now. Thompson hasn't been good this year, but i do think he's a legitimate 10th man wing in the NBA. Sims continues to look like a nice bench big. Wroten is Wroten. Spark off the bench, that can be useful in the right amount of doses, but can hurt you if you give him too much freedom. Some type of non-jumpshooting version of Jamal Crawford.
Grant and Jakarr seem like similar NBA experiments, with Grant being a bit farther along because a freak athlete can get by more easily as a combo forward then as a wing. But both guys are the types of players who could be valuable if they ever learn how to play NBA level basketball. At very least, having those types of versatile athletes fits well in terms of the type of disruptive defense they are looking for- even if they probably should be honing their craft in the D-League.
I wonder how many of those types of guys ever learn the game enough to be impact rotation players. I'm sure most end up as LRMAM type journeyman.
Jakarr has made a nice jump over the last 10 or so games. If you think about the amount responsibility Brown has put on him at times during that stretch (spot PG duties for a 6'8 UDFA Forward??), I'm surprised he's finishing the month in the position he is. He's still obviously a big work in progress on the offensive end, but he's playing more within the flow of the game now. And he's looked better with both his shooting and shot selection. On the D end he's flat out impressive.
I can't say enough how much I like the direction this team is going as far as versatile, long, lean athletic body types, and the ability to switch up on defense. Can they shoot? No. But these guys are going to be pieces. The shooters will come. I'll echo what Derek has written that it sure would be nice to somehow pry Jimmy Butler away from Chicago next year. Although I think they realize he's a max player now and will find a way to pay him. That $2MM or so dollars they were apart in negotiations last year is gonna come back to haunt them.
Here's something very interesting that i recently discovered:
The Sixers are no.2 in the league in defensive efficiency in the month of December so far. That's the last 11 games. It's absolutely crazy given the lack of experience and familiarity on the team.
They are still a horror show on the other end though.
a bit of a statistical anomaly. teams sometimes play flat against sixers (another game on slate of 82). heat up 23, checked out too early, to their discredit. when the downeast napoleon has his raw, athletic troops charged and focused, disruptions can occur. the puppies vs. the too tolerant owners = surprises. I don't expect clamps on prepared teams though. see upcoming west coast rigors, beginning tonight.
They've also lost by 15+ points in 5 of the 11 games they've played so far in the month of December. That might have something to do with it as well.
Anyway, I was impressed with their defensive performance against Miami. Near the end of the game it seemed like Miami was too scared to drive to the basket in fear of getting blocked or turning the ball over.
152 assists, 95 turnovers. 40% from field. 26% from beyond arc. mcw. what a floor general. is playin' like he bulked up on potato salad this summer. yet sixers continue to give him the minutes and the ball, feature him. a pampered eager beaver with many holes in his game.
no hollis again
wroten back and NO LMA for Portland
batum back for POR
also no kaman and lopez is hurt
Wow. I guess that means Joel Freeland, Meyers Leeonard, and Thomas Robinson.
I wonder is LMA, Lopez, or Kaman would play if they were going up against a better team.
kaman's wife had a baby, lopez has a broken hand and LMA is sick(respiratory infection i think)
nice take by noel
good job by mcw getting in the paint so far
rc to the line
missed both
sims putback
nice look from wroten to sims
wroten to the line
split them
down 27-24 end of the 1st
rough landing for KJ, looks ok getting up and heads to the line
made both
covington is a little bit of a mess right now
wroten to the line
split them
mcw floater
guarding the 3pt line might help
stop switching noel on lillard
down 61-51 at the half
Covington seems much quicker on offense than on defense for some reason. Or is that just me?
Not to say he's quick with the ball or anything but he looked statue-esque when he was on Lillard at the end of the half there with like a minute left.
he just seems slow in general to me
mcw to the line
split them
rc3
mcw cant buy a call
like wroten gets calls mcw can only dream of getting and i have no idea why
down 88-74 end of the 3rd
noel block and slam!
wroten to the line
made both
i love when the refs start calling things that havent been called all night when the sixers are down 18 with 3 minutes left
lost 114-93
not as bad as the score seems
@ Utah tomorrow
They outscored Portland by 30+ in the paint, yet lost by 20. Portland was hitting jumpers all over the place (18 threes and maybe 10 mid range jumpers made).
Their offensive performance was somewhat fluky, but it also shows how bad the Sixers are in the shooting department. You can't win just by scoring in the pain in the modern NBA.
'fluky'?
No I dont agree. Sixers allowed them to launch 43 3 pt shots, with a good percentage of them being very open looks. If you take that many you gotta hit some right? Even moreso for one of the best 3pt shooting teams in the league.
This one was on bad defense; they just didn't play smart. A lot of broken plays that ended up in an open 3 but a lot of mental farts too. They didn't prepare well enough for the Blazers' offensive spread out style. Or at least it looked that way.
Faried 26 points 25 rebounds in 29:37 minutes vs. T-Wolves.
According to Carter-Williams' shot chart, he needs to discontinue all shooting immediately.
no burks for utah
@MaxRappaport Hollis Thompson (illness) has been sent back to Philadelphia as a precautionary measure. Luc Mbah a Moute (strained calf) won't play.
MCW is a horrific shooter. And he's getting worse not better.
44-32 Jazz up at half.
MCW is 1-13 from the floor; just not making any shots, feet set and all.
Noel bested by Favors all night. His over-help on pick and rolls has enabled a clear lane for the roll man to the hoop.
Wroten the only bright spot; basically doing the Wroten thing with reckless abandon.
Furkan Aldemir looked like he can play basketball. Quicker on lateral than you think. Good screens but not much so far.
It's easy to say this team just sucks and be done with it but it's better to see what causes them to play so badly and tonight as the Jazz announcers simply stated; there is no offense, just a bunch of one on one with guys who cant shoot.
Hope for better ball movement in 2nd half.
Lost by 17. But the game was close for most of the 4th quarter. That 17 point lead was built up in the last 3 minutes or so.
MCW- 2 for 20, 6 assists to 6 turnovers. Holy Crap. Hopefully he has some Ellen reruns to hold him till Monday.
One thing I notice about Noel is he doesn't appear to want any parts of contact. Yes he's naturally a slim human being, but bulking up will only help him so much. He needs toughness to play in the NBA. Too often he gets knocked off his spot (on both sides of the floor) because he just doesn't put up a fight. Also, when a shot goes up, he doesn't attack to offensive boards but prefers to drift around the free throw line, or away from the basket in general. That has to change. Overall I still think he's developing at the right pace, and he's still young and trying to find his way. Time will tell where his place on this team will be. His instincts on defense are very impressive and It will be fun watching him develop as a perimeter defender and overall disrupter. But I worry about his general toughness. I hope to see him fight a bit more on both ends.
A lot of guys battled tonight and that was good to see. Not sure what the score would have been if not for the jolt Wroten gave them off the bench. He was a lifeline early on tonight when nobody could do anything on offense. He gave the team a chance.
It was funny listening to Harping do the game for Utah and gush about how great Utah has drafted versus the Sixers. Now I love Favors. And Exum, while not the least bit impressive tonight, is a guy I liked a lot pre-draft. But this is a franchise that just spent two straight lottery picks on PGs. And I always felt they built their roster without a plan about what the end goal was. A lot of pieces, some of them good ones, that don't quite fit together. And now they have to pay everyone. Then he talks about Embiid like he was already a wasted pick. Thanks, but I'd happily take the Sixers future over Utah.
Harping says the same BS every time the sixers and utah play the last couple of years
The point on Noel is valid. I only watched first half last night but got to see some Aldemir. That guy plays tough. It was a 2minute span where he MADE SURE he the defender felt his pick, and then as the shot went up on defense, he got in position and made sure his ass was hitting someone. He has his limitations, but he was fun to watch. I have to imagine it will be good for Noel to practice against him day to day. Hopefully he plays that way in practice as well.
I actually find Noel and MCW to be a bit soft in the toughness category. This was something I always loved about Embid at Kansas. He will taunt you and get chippy and get emotional. I know you can't do all of that when you aren't good, but you need to develop it as some point. I liked what Noel did to Bledsoe, I would like him to bulk up and do more of that.
As a side point, I think Karl Towns was showing this against Louiseville. I think Towns would be a nice fit next to Noel and could be a nice fit to my idea of Embid.
Yeah I've been on the Towns bandwagon as well. His size, range, and athleticism make him an ideal fit for the sixers. I'd take him No. 1. I would love to be able to nab Hezonja with Miami's pick. He'll most likely be gone by then.
I think a pick like Towns plus the additions of Embiid and the other first rd pick would make this team attractive to a free agent(s). Next season could be a real fun one to watch.
@ZachLowe_NBA Sixers are +38 for the season when MCW/Covington/KJ play together. Logging only about 6-7 minutes/game as a trio over last month.
I actually wrote a fanpost over at LB that includes this a few days ago.
http://www.libertyballers.com/2014/12/24/7447583/sixers-statwatch-vol-1
It's really weird that the Sixers have barely played their best 5 man unit, which is so obvious even if you don't look at any stats:
MCW / McDaniels / Covington / LRMAM / Noel
They've only logged 27 minutes together all season long, which is a little baffling IMO. It doesn't have to be the starting lineup (i'm fine with Thompson starting over McDaniels) but they should definitely finish games with it. I think they've played that lineup twice at the end of games so far and won both games.
Just play those guys and give rotation minutes to Wroten, Thompson and Sims and you have a functional team (they'll still be bad but not this bad, especially not offensively).
We'll see what Aldemir can bring soon, but Sampson simply put shouldn't be getting any minutes let alone start and Grant has too big of a role IMO. And for some reason Brown keeps playing MCW with non-shooters, when it's pretty clear that MCW is the type of PG that absolutely needs shooters around him to be successful. Wroten on the other hand can probably survive without many shooters because his game is driving recklessly to the rim regardless of how packed it is anyway.
27 minutes doesn't say much of anything as it pertains to the effectiveness of a unit.
Only one shooter, Covington, in your bunch, and he's coming back to earth with increased opponent attention.
EVERY point guard needs shooters, even exceptional talents like Pistol, Tiny & A.I., BUT not every point guard knows how to set shooters up for success OR carries the propensity to sublimate ego for such an unglamourous, "secondary" task.
Of course it's a small sample. I'm not saying otherwise. But considering it's a pretty obvious lineup to give heavy minutes to, they've somehow been reluctant to do it. And it's absolutely worth a shot to see if the team is better that way than they are right now.
it's a bit harder now that KJ has regressed shooting wise but I think that lineup plays well with each other. KJ and Covington do similar things on offense and Noel with a small 4 is a very quick defensive lineup. Defensively I like that lineup. As it seems that no one can shoot, might as well not give up points.
My biggest qualm with Brown is the absolute inconsistency of his lineups. I know we've had a slew of injuries and all but he keeps experimenting. I think if something works, try and stick with it and build off that. BB seems to fall in and out of love quickly. These guys barely know how to play off each other; it's impossible to expect them to make it work in whatever permutation you decide to go with.
I also think Brown has experimented too much: no lineups have played more than 83 minutes total all season long - which is kind of ridiculous.
But i also think Hinkie has kind of put him in a tough situation with a constant flow of different bodies. Add the injuries and it would have been difficult to have some consistency anyway. But BB has to have some of the blame to. Starting Jakarr Sampson can't be the answer to anything he was thinking about...
I don't see any way in hell that lineup would be able to compete on the offensive end. Noel, LRAM and McDaniels are less than zero offensively. Covington can maybe shoot a little bit. MCW is the only one who can create a shot..but he can't shoot. What a disaster. They'd have to be the best defensive lineup ever, which they wouldn't be. Probably be light on the boards as well.
My point isn't that they are going to suddenly become a good team. It's that that lineup is absolutely worth a shot. It makes too much sense. And i'd bet they'd be better overall than they are now.
Jazz crew's comments on the rebuilding process are laughable, saying the Jazz have more of a future than the Sixers. They have some good players, yes. Future, No. It is interesting how once you get your star player all the trashy mediocre parts suddenly start to fit in. No star player to build around = 0 future. To make matters worse, they are in the Western Conference. As much as this carnage sucks I am fine with rolling the dice again and again.
Jazz's length and quickness bothered MCW last night. He bricked outside shots too but got blocked, and fouled (no calls) inside too.
Noel shies away from contact. Not sure if the reason his screens are so weak is that he wants to avoid it, or to slip quickly enough that he doesn't have to trail MCW to the hoop or the fact that both MCW and Wroten do not wait for the screens/do not lead their man into it.
It feels like 25% of MCW's turnovers come from trying to force dump-offs inside after wild drives to the hoop. Usually I blame Noel's rocks but a bunch went clean though Sims vicinity yesterday. Wonder if he fires them too hard or too small a space.
Jazz owned the boards last night.
The only time we seem to run a set play is after a time-out.
Dante Exum looks like he belongs with the Sixers. Long, athletic, can't shoot. The physical tools was one of the main reasons he was projected to be the best guard in the draft. So far I have seen little explosiveness. Athleticism wise he doesn't look special. He has good vision for a guard but that's not the reason he was so highly touted. Whenever he had a big game I would watch the highlights and most of them had him shooting 3s, nothing wildly athletic has caught my eye. Of course this is way too early.
Out of curiosity, why do you think Philly's future is so much brighter? Favors is better than any big we have on the roster, Hayward is better than any wing, and most people seem higher on Exum than any guard on our roster. Is it because they're paying Hayward and Favors? I thought the consensus was the cap was going up so much, pretty much every contract signed under the current CBA was going to look like a bargain. If the cap is really going to skyrocket in two years, doesn't that make the Sixers' perceived salary cap advantage pretty much worthless? It means teams with actual pieces in place will also suddenly have a plethora of cap space...teams that are much more attractive to players who desire to win. Unless you're counting your Embiid's and Saric's before they're hatched, if that's your logic then I disagree for other reasons.
I never said the Sixers' future was brighter. I just put them on the same level as us. That they're essentially just paddling in shallow water.
Signing a star player in Utah seems like a difficult task. The fact that they play in the Western Conference makes their mediocre ceiling very possible.
My understanding is that we are tanking to find that one star player, upon which you can actually have something that resembles a destination for free agents so our cap flexibility doesn't seem like an asset right now to me.
I will concede that you're right about the quality of their players.
My argument is the destination point of all of that. For both of us, it's still zero.
If you want to dumb it down, you could say I am hinging my hopes on an injured center. but to me that's no different from the Andrew Bynum fiasco anyway.
Pride, respectability are transient things to me, so I am more comfortable with the status quo.
I think most of the debate on this site is really as simple as: how do you value Embid and our number one pick this year. I respect that you don't put too much value in Embid. I can also respect not thinking much of a mysterious first rounder in the upcoming draft. I like Okafor and Towns a lot.
I think I would trade our future with the Bucks, but not the Jazz. That is given my view on Embid. If we don't get a superstar out of Embid or the upcoming draft, then we are left with a lot of scrambled assets and cap space.
Yea, it all comes down to Embiid. Other than John Wall or Anthony Davis, I don't think I would trade Embiid for any player taken in the last 5 drafts.
But that's only because I'm optimistic on his long term health and his ability to reach his potential.
To be fair, Embiid is the reason we've read so many different stuff everywhere about the Sixers future.
The truth is we simply don't know if he can be healthy long term or not. Noone does. His impact is practically impossible to quantify right now.
"Other than John Wall or Anthony Davis, I don't think I would trade Embiid for any player taken in the last 5 drafts."
I'm pro-Embiid, but that's a really strong statement. Cousins, Klay, Lillard, Kawhi,or even one-way guys like Kyrie and Drummond? I guess you'll make the upside/franchise player argument, but that's some really good, really young, proven players.
Given the health risks I think I'd trade him for Cousins and Lillard, but not Klay or Kawhi ... and probably not the other two. Cousins and Lillard are really good, though. Lillard's probably a top 10 player today and Cousins might be one; if not he's pretty close. On the other hand, I wouldn't trade Embiid for Wall.
you need to watch John Wall play a little more, especially this season. I think he has made a legit point guard jump in decision making. He's scary good and on the uptick.
So I hear, but he's still the same inefficient scorer he's always been. Or at least, he's significantly less efficient than pretty much every elite point guard you can think of.
2 for 20. Genuine 'rock' star. Put your hands together and give it up for Michael. Carter. Williams. Whose bricks are made of high-grade foam and whose turnovers are the fault of teammates and referees. New list inside locker is of first names of league arena rims... "Nope", "Try Again", "Ain't Happenin'", "Ouch!", "Ease up, bro", "Dang, Clang!", "Only In Horseshoes", "Tilt", et al.
#1: outsized ego, undersized game. Exquisite personnel symbol for Harris-Hinkie-Brown TogetherBuilding.
Snowflake.
I'm having trouble understanding the people who say that Embiid is this Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Olajuwon type of prospect who is head and shoulders above everyone in recent memory, and at the same time say that they're optimistic about his ability to stay healthy. How do they explain Wiggins at 1 & Parker at 2 then?
I mean if Embiid's injury concerns really are blown out of proportion, then why did the first 2 teams pass on this super stud? and what exactly are the arguments for dismissing all of his medical red flags? "Hinkie knows what he's doing" ?
When did Philadelphia sports fans become "glass half full" people anyway? I guess Hinkie must have singlehandedly turned the city's culture around.
Well to any level headed person Joel Embiid as a pick was always a gamble. High risk, high reward. Cleveland and Milwaukee did not wish to take that risk and that's fine. Philadelphia happens to be in the perfect position to take a risk like that. After Elton Brand and Andrew Bynum, I'm very pleased with the Embiid pick.
Philly fans are a curious case. I think we have simply lowered our expectations (see 2013/14 season) and keep forwarding our hopes into the future:
"It'll be allright once the rookie of the year comes back."
"It'll be all right when Nerlens Noel finally steps on the court"
"It'll be all right once Saric comes over"
"It'll be all right once Joel Embiid steps on the floor"
"It'll be all right once we get a top 2 pick in this year's draft"
It really only takes one bullet to hit before you look like a genius. New Orleans was a waste of a franchise. Hello Anthony Davis. All of a sudden the Tyreke Evans, Jrue Holiday and Eric Gordon deals dont look so bad. They are now hypothetically one piece away from contending and AD hasn't even hit his prime. Cap is going up, future suddenly looks rosy.
in addition think about this.
Embiid was in a tier by himself for most draft experts. Wiggins and Parker were below him. It took 2 separate injuries to knock him out of that top spot. An injured back and a navicular bone. All key banes of the big man.
In comparison, Noel's ACL tear dropped him 5 spots and maybe even further if we hadn't picked him there.
Now the timing of the injuries is different but even after a couple of injuries that would scare teams off any prospect, there was still uncertainty as to whether the Cavs would take him at #1.
That's how good Embiid, as a prospect, is.
"Philadelphia happens to be in the perfect position to take a risk like that."
Why do you say that? I'd actually say it's the opposite - the goal was to maximize "certainty" in a way. The 2014 draft was forecast as something special or whatever, that's why the Sixers threw away that particular season - to cash in on one of these 3 or 4 franchise centerpieces that were supposed to've been available. If they wanted to take a swing at the fences, they could have done that in any other draft by picking dudes like LaVine in the late lottery.
Anyway, ultimately, I think everyone at the top of the 14 class will prove to have been a bit overhyped, but the "safe" picks (in my opinion) were Parker, Wiggins, and Smart. And the Sixers would have been better off with a "safer" prospect like Wiggins or Parker.
Does my post make sense? My brain is sleep deprived and I don't think I really said what I wanted to.
The main thing is this:
"even after a couple of injuries that would scare teams off any prospect, there was still uncertainty as to whether the Cavs would take him at #1. That's how good Embiid, as a prospect, is."
That's basically my point. If that's how good of a prospect Embiid is, then the fact that the Cavs and Bucks passed on him signifies that his injuries & bone density scans are much more troubling than the "it's all good, no big deal" narrative. Feels like a lot of Sixer fans seem to think that Embiid was still the best pick of the draft, even with the injury concerns, and I don't agree with that. A 20 year old who has played 4 years of organized bball and was injury-plagued in 2 of them isn't going to suddenly get more durable when the workload increases to 82 games and everyone around is now way faster and stronger.
The reason why Cleveland and Milwaukee passed on Embiid is much simpler IMO. The management of both teams was in a very difficult position. They were (and to a degree still are) on the verge of being fired. It's very hard to justify spending a top 2 pick in a hyped draft class on a player that brings any kind of serious risk.
There is absolutely risk involving Embiid. His injury situation is unclear and i think noone really knows what the future holds for him. But i don't think the "bone density" or whatever triggered them to pass on him. Just being injured with a theoretically dangerous injury was enough to sway a management team in a difficult situation to opt for a much safer choice. Now that doesn't mean that Embiid is going to be fine or that all of the talk about his "bone density" is false. It just means that the reason why they passed on him isn't that "deep". I just think there's no way they would've drafted any kind of risk in their situation (Exum probably was never an option for them either for similar reasons).
"I'm having trouble understanding the people who say that Embiid is this Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Olajuwon type of prospect who is head and shoulders above everyone in recent memory.."
I don't think it should be difficult to understand at all since it was all played out before our eyes and well reported in the media last year. As far as him as a prospect goes, all you had to do was watch him and that question should be answered. And as to why CLE and MIL took other players, that info is no secret either. CLE got burned on Bennet and knew they had a shot at LeBron so needed someone who could 1)actually play this season and/or 2) wasn't injured so they could deal him. And MIL wanted a (close-to) home town kid and he wanted them as well (which is rare for MIL). And he was healthy. They were both excellent prospects so it's no like they Sixers pulled one over on anyone. But among scouts, Embiid was definitely the consensus No. 1 pick while healthy, and still No.1 for many after the injuries.
The medical stuff is what I would feel most confident about since Hinkie at least has prior knowledge of the injury, healing time, best doctors etc...from going through all of this with Yao. They had all the medical documentation for Embiid (I don't think MIL was ever given that info) and felt the risk/reward of drafting this kid at #3 was worth it. It all comes down to risk/reward. I think at #3 he was easily worth the risk.
I wasn't disputing Embiid's hype or ranking. I was just saying that calling him a generational player on par with Duncan or Olajuwon while also saying that his medical issues aren't very pertinent beyond the 14-15 season can't be reconciled with him slipping past #1.
If both of those things were true (generational prospect + checks out medically), then it wouldn't make sense for either Cleveland or Milwakee to pass on him. His trade value to Minny would have been higher than Wiggins', even if he missed his rookie season.
And something trivial like "Parker is from Chicago" wouldn't make a difference either, especially to Milwaukee.
Oh and:
"I think at #3 he was easily worth the risk."
For sure, no question they made the right pick at #3. I was just a lil upset that they ended up at 3 to begin with. It sort of felt like they were "stuck" with Embiid.
Agreed. I wasn't happy at all about #3 when it happened. But now I could not be happier. Listen I don't get into advanced stats like some on this site (I think you do a bit judging by past comments). Make no mistake, I see the value in those stats, but the process of going through them is too tedious for my level of interest - at least right now. So just watching Wiggins play, advanced metrics aside, I have not been overly impressed. And I am rooting for him because I want him to succeed. Defensively he is going to be exceptional. And maybe his offense and "alpha-dog" mentality is progressing right where he should be...who knows as time will tell. But so far...he's been just OK IMO. Parker is already out for the year, and he was just "OK" as well while he was on the floor. We'll see where Embiid is health-wise and just as important, diet-wise. Then give me Towns next June.
I mean, you don't have to get into advanced stats to say to yourself, "huh, a guy billed as the most athletic wing prospect since LeBron is shooting 40% on 2-point shots." Or, "how about the fact that this phenomenal freak athlete only attempts a dunk on 1 out of every 17 shots, as compared to Jabari's 1 out of 6 or K.J.'s 1 out of 8? Whether because of a lack of aggression or ball-handling or both, something seems to be preventing Wiggins from putting his athleticism to much use." Or, "what does it say about Wiggins's feel for the game that he's averaging 1.4 assists a game to 2 turnovers?" Or, "hmm, a guy billed as a Melo-like scorer has made 4 threes all year and gets to the line half as often as Melo did his rookie season; also, this supposedly amazing, ready-now scorer is scoring 12 points a game on a team with fairly few scorers, where he's only asked to shoot." All of that is basically box score stats. I don't look too heavily into a lot of the all-in-one advanced stats, like win shares or adjusted plus-minus or VORP or PER or offensive/defensive rating, because I don't quite get how they're made and I'm not too sure which ones are best. And I don't look much at on/off data, because it seems so context-specific.
Agreed. Well stated.
I bet if Embiid was playing, he would look absolutely lost out there, just like everyone else on this ad hoc team.
I'd bet you a gazillion dollars that Wiggins and Parker will have better individual careers than Embiid and Exum when all's said and done, I would even let you choose the criteria for what "better career" is. But I don't wanna cheer against Embiid, cause
Mostly just a strong hunch, but I simply don't see Embiid staying healthy enough, long enough and I see Exum quietly disappearing into the sea of non-factor interchangeable NBA role players. Larry Hughes with an accent.
Should say: ...but I don't wanna cheer against Embiid because I love the Sixers :)
Brian, when I type the greater-than/less-than signs on here, they don't work and for some reason using them also deletes the entire paragraph that they're in. Kind of a big deal cause you can't make sideways heart symbols without them. Idk if you can fix that somehow
Boy...I disagree on the Larry Hughes/Exum comp. Exum has a defined position. He is a true PG. Hughes was a scorer whom the Sixers tried to make a PG. The only things they have in common are athleticism, suspect shooting ability, and similar size (throw in the possibility of corn rows for Exum next year). But I believe Exum will be a very good PG. And I think his shot will improve as well. Although he looked awful the against the Sixers.
I should add that I don't think you were comparing them player for player. You were making the comparison that Exum will quietly wash out of the NBA over time. I think his skills as a PG will make him special in the long term.
I mainly said that just to antagonize Tray. He was using BballReference to cherry pick anti-Wiggins stats again.
Exum has a decent chance to top Larry Hughes I suppose...but becoming a modern day Penny Hardaway is about as likely as MCW being the next Jason Kidd. He was an international standout but what does he have in his game to really hang his hat on in the NBA? I can't disagree with Orlando picking Gordon at 4 over Exum. They probably saw that a guy with a 50% chance to become Shawn Marion is more valuable than the foreign enigma who might have a 5% shot to be Penny. The other 95% = who knows because most of Exum's film was just a montage of him euro-stepping through some teenage JV squad in Australia.
I do hope I'm wrong about Embiid's health though. like Rusty and Stan were saying above, everything hinges on Embiid panning out.
First of all, I don't agree that everyone on the team looks lost, especially on defense. Second, it's not fair to compare a hypothetical Embiid season looking lost on this team to what other guys are doing on teams whose rosters are less of a mess. Wiggins has less excuse to look lost. Would a healthy Embiid totally transcend the situation? No, I can't imagine he would or that any other rookie would. And third, ok cool, you have a hunch that Embiid will have serious injury problems. I have no hunch because I'm not a doctor and don't have medical hunches. And our doctors either have a different hunch or something more than a hunch that he'll be alright, while two other teams' doctors seemed to be more concerned; then again maybe they're catering to risk-adverse fans or have risk-adverse owners. Hard to say, really. I think debating Embiid's health risks is really pointless because we don't know anything about the matter.
What I am willing to argue is that Wiggins projects more like Rudy Gay than LeBron or even Paul George, and that Parker isn't going to be too special. If you believe that, it becomes a lot easier to swallow Embiid's risks, however great they are. Exum's kind of a mystery to me and everyone else, which is a good reason to not draft him over the overwhelmingly most talented player in college basketball. That said, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from what he does this year. He's a 19 year-old guard coming out of a high school in a relatively bad basketball country. Kobe or Monta or Lou weren't doing much their rookie seasons either.
Wiggins doesn't really look "lost" to me for the most part. Esp. considering that he was handed the offensive keys to a young team absolutely wrecked by injuries in the Western Conf. He's showing plenty of flashes on both ends and is generally performing as well as could reasonably be expected on a team quarterbacked by Zach LaVine. He's not LeBron, you're right. but you should blame whoever it was that anointed him LeBron to begin with, not Wiggins for failing to meet some nonsensical standard.
No reason why he can't become a Paul George or something, given the same time frame... Or even a useful version of Rudy Gay; imagine a few tweaks that would make Rudy Gay more productive/less annoying with the ball and combine that with all NBA level perimeter defense that Wiggins is capable of. That'd be pretty good in my opinion. Iggy was routinely touted on this blog as a legit star cause he could D up so don't be such a homer.
This is you on Exum:
"That said, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from what he does this year. He's a 19 year-old guard coming out of a high school in a relatively bad basketball country. Kobe or Monta or Lou weren't doing much their rookie seasons either."
And here's you on Wiggins and Parker:
"What I am willing to argue is that Wiggins projects more like Rudy Gay...and that Parker isn't going to be too special."
How come the leash is shorter when it comes to those two?
The leash is shorter when it comes to Wiggins and Parker in part because they're a bit more experienced, but mostly because I thought these things before the draft. It's not like (in my mind) Wiggins was this awesome prospect in June, who is now only the next Rudy Gay because of his rookie numbers. Actually I expected a little less than he's shown. That said, here's a fun piece which notes that various advanced metrics have him pegged as a really awful player. Among other things, he's somehow last in the whole league in VORP, and last in several other metrics among players with real minutes.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/andrew-wiggins-lebron-james/
As for the homer thing, I was never a huge Iguodala-touter; that would be the host of this blog, who also really likes Wiggins. So we're both consistent, if having similar views on Wiggins and Iguodala is a sign of consistency. That said, I don't know what makes people think Wiggins is in Iguodala's superlative class as a defender, or will ever be. God knows where defensive ratings come from, but Wiggins's is 114 to Iguodala's rookie mark of 102. His defensive box plus-minus is -1.7 to Iguodala's rookie mark of 2.6. His "real" plus-minus on defense, over on ESPN, which I take it is an adjusted plus-minus from real on-off data that accounts for differences in surrounding lineups, is -1.12. The raw numbers, that is, the numbers that don't adjust for poorer lineups when Wiggins (a starter) is on the bench, say that teams are half a point better when Wiggins is on the court than off. Opponents rebound better when he plays and shoot a hair better, though they do turn over the ball more. And as far as box score stats go, 1.2 steals per 36 minutes is kind of low. As far as I can tell, Wiggins falls in the category of players with great defensive potential but average fundamentals, like KJ, and quite unlike Iguodala. And comparing him to KJ is kind as KJ is making a much larger defensive impact.
We weren't comparing Wiggins to Iguodala or to Rudy. It's Wiggins vs. Parker vs. Embiid vs. Exum. I mentioned dre just to point out that Wiggins' defensive potential is important to remember too when thinking about his ceiling as a player.
That said, yeah I kind of already had a sense of those numbers you listed for him. At this stage it's easier to portray him as the next Jumaine Jones rather than Paul George. But that'd be silly and unfair since, again, he's a rookie on a bad team. I mean I'll make Exum look like he's on pace to be a poor man's Leandro Barbosa if you want.
Anyway, I was talking about using what seemed like a double standard of projecting & evaluating rookies. But if you're just saying you like Exum more than Wiggins then alright, that's cool with me
Exum's numbers aren't quite as bad, but that aside I did like Exum more, coming into the draft. As to the rest, I would be higher on Wiggins if I thought there was a really great chance that he'd reach his defensive potential. I don't think it's silly and unfair to look at Wiggins's numbers just because he's a rookie on a bad team; we can compare his numbers to that of other rookies on bad teams, or other 19-year-olds, which is what that piece does. It doesn't argue, "look, right now Wiggins's numbers are like that of a mature Jumaine Jones."
Say you're GM, if Embiid went 1 and Parker 2 you would really go with Exum over Wiggins?
Kind of a leap of faith, but yes.
Yeah if we had the #1 pick, I probably would have wanted us to pick Wiggins in that situation.
Injury susceptibility is something that cannot really be quantified but prior injuries are as accurate a barometer for an athlete. It is possible to read positive medical reports on his foot and back and still be wary of Embiid if you were the Cavs or Bucks.
A few points:
I'd take Exum over MCW every day of the week. Even though he looks a but overwhelmed, I don't remember many (if any) underclass point guards who perform well early on. Let alone high school kids.
I would have taken the players picked in order if we had any of the top 3 picks. If embid never was hurt, I would have taken him 1. Hinkie researched the injury in the past but he isn't a doctor. After watching what cousins is doing with his size and athleticism, I get insanely excited at even the remote possibility of embid on a court. He will suck for his first few years from foul trouble and learning the game, but that will be the apology in the future.
Reggie Jackson, Tobias Harris and then the likely matched Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler. I would love to pry Butler, but I would consider Harris on the right deal. I didn't realize Jackson struggled shooting as much as he does but I'd even consider him at $10mn if we believed he could shoot in the future.
I wonder if we would ever trade the Miami pick. Hinkie has made his preference of players vs picks clear, but it's an interesting chip. Would you trade that pick to the lakers in a 3 team deal where you got randle and additional assets for providing cap space? I don't expect la to do anything like this but it feels as though last years deadline was a but too quiet.
Things I hate about Randle: bball iq, passing, defense. Things I don't like: predominantly below-the-rim scorer, questionable jump shot, fit with this roster. Stuff I like: scoring instincts, gets to the line a ton, great rebounder.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, although I tend to view the jump shot as very fixable. He is a total wildcard so its fair....
For some odd reason, I just really want us to have a dominant frontcourt. Not that we have had dominant backcourts in my past, but I have grown up without a true monster underneath. The Shawn Bradley through current era has lacked a Moses Malone esque talent underneath. I don't even know that we had "the best" Moses, but that is what I want. It appears that we are getting some true frontcourt talent making its way back into the NBA with Cousins. Howard is probably in the last few yersa of his relative dominance. Maybe Drummond gets there. Perhaps that is why I want Embiid to be great and to draft a Towns or Okafor. Its why I would welcome a Randle or a bruiser. I would love to run a Memphis type style of play.
Warriors game - down 15 after 1. We love to overpass in terrible situations. Can't shoot, can't pass...this will be painful
Noel makes go absolutely nuts. God bless development.
The definition of touch is simply the opposite of what Nerlens has around the rim....
Mo Speights 6/7 and 9 points 12 points in 9 minutes thus far.
Only down 40, I'm expecting a monster comeback.
Has anyone noticed Noel's TS%? I might be a bit out of the loop, but is 45.5% acceptable for an NBA big man today? 15.5% usage rate, so he isn't trying to do too much...20.9% turnover rate, which is kinda high. In what world will this team ever be able to hide that for 35 minutes/night and remain competitive?
I think the hope is that he gets better, or that you don't hide it for 35 minutes a night because you draft Towns and he becomes a 6th man. Now, can he actually get so much better that he isn't still pretty bad? I have my doubts.
The hope is that the #6 pick might turn into a sixth man, and we'll us another top five pick to get the starter, after using two other top ten picks on guys that play his position.
Just a thought, but has the NBA changed to the point where getting a good big man isn't the best route to building a contender? Duncan is the only one that's won a title in the past eight years is memory serves. Dirk is really a three playing the four, so I don't count him. Seems like wing scorers are more important than bigs these days.
Noel is shooting 59.1% at the rim. I think Sam Dalembert is about three rungs above Noel's offensive ceiling. Should probably see if you can find a taker for him sooner rather than later, considering he's going to be due for an extension after his third season.
MCW said all the right things to the media sounding confident that he'll come back strong after his 2-20 performance. Then the game happened and he was scared to play. Not a great step in the leadership department for MCW. What a game.
Not to be a pain, but any chance we can get a new thread? We are through the first third of the season. If it's easier for a fan post just let us know.
Man the Warriors are SO good. The Sixers had an average game IMO and still got blown out by 40. Of course a Sixers average game is still a terrible performance overall, but they definitely played much better compared to the Dallas and Toronto blowouts from earlier in the season.
I'll see if I can get a new post for the new year. On vacation, so the wife probably won't be too happy with me.